Choi training with Takada?

**American HKD** · 01-13-2005, 12:34

Greetings,

Someone brought this up on the other thread so I'll move it to a new topic.

According to the Daito Ryu web site http://www.daito-ryu.org/index.html

Takada never had a dojo but traveled from place to place for a week at a time or so and taught seminar style.

No one knows where Choi lived in Japan or what did he did to live or earn his keep. Takada's sons and high ranking students would have known Choi if he was someone of status meaning high skill level and been able to confirm his training.

On the other hand it's possible Choi studied at these types of seminar and no one really paid much attention to him. After all Takada taught thousands of people mainly police and military so its possible Choi was at many of these seminars somehow.

One thing though it says that Takada made everyone sign in for every seminar and they gave and example of Morihei Ueshiba attened about 90 seminars which was alot according to the interveiw.

So some of these records should be available I would think?

Interesting stuff but solves nothing.

**iron_ox** · 01-13-2005, 12:57

Hello Stuart,

This topic has been beaten to death, but here is some fun conjecture, note the word CONJECTURE here peolpe - not fact, just some fun, OK?

Takeda was a known paranoid, it is documented on more than one occasion that he tried to kill people that roused him from sleep (including his own young son) - I think he would have a great last laugh if the man he spent most time teaching was a Korean - then people would have to go to Korea to learn his stuff...

Dojunim Choi sure seemed to know his stuff - the seminar theory may not hold up here...

I wonder if Takeda only taught certain levels to certain people - this seems to be what was reported, and a trait that Dojunim Choi certainly had...

Takeda was a staunch nationalist, and the military machine he loved was breaking down as his life progressed - so maybe he felt sending a bulk of his material "off-shore" would ensure its survival if Japan fell apart...

Just random ideas, no real proof here, so please don't read it as such.

**American HKD** · 01-13-2005, 13:01

Originally Posted by iron_ox

Hello Stuart,

This topic has been beaten to death, but here is some fun conjecture, note the word CONJECTURE here peolpe - not fact, just some fun, OK?

Takeda was a known paranoid, it is documented on more than one occasion that he tried to kill people that roused him from sleep (including his own young son) - I think he would have a great last laugh if the man he spent most time teaching was a Korean - then people would have to go to Korea to learn his stuff...

Dojunim Choi sure seemed to know his stuff - the seminar theory may not hold up here...

I wonder if Takeda only taught certain levels to certain people - this seems to be what was reported, and a trait that Dojunim Choi certainly had...

Takeda was a staunch nationalist, and the military machine he loved was breaking down as his life progressed - so maybe he felt sending a bulk of his material "off-shore" would ensure its survival if Japan fell apart...

Just random ideas, no real proof here, so please don't read it as such.

Kev,

I agree all CONJECTURE but interesting and nobody really knows what happened.

Why do you think Choi never gave very much details about training in Japan?

**iron_ox** · 01-13-2005, 13:06

Hello Stuart,

I think this is because, according to several students, Dojunim Choi is said to have had a hard time communicating verbally with students - I am not sure to what extent this is but have heard (note, heard) that he spoke a combination of very old, somewhat poor Korean and Japanese. This is a topic I hope to bring up on my next visit to Korea.

**Michael Tomlinson** · 01-13-2005, 13:34

In reading some of the books about old aikijujutsu training I found one passage in the back of one of the books in which the interviewer asked Ueshiba's son if he had ever heard or met Choi Yong Sool... he says in the book that he had seen him before and that his father knew him pretty well and actually wrote letters to him in Korea on occasion....

this is an approximation of what I read,, I don't have the book in front of me right now but I have it at home...

the seminar thing is not far fetched at all and in fact that is how Takeda taught.. he travelled around Japan to different areas regularly training military, government officials, etc.. he would actually train them for a ten day stint and then move on,, eventually looping back again to the same area... this is all in the two books I have... I forget the names but one is about Aikijujutsu training before WWII... the guy interviews a ton of old GM's in Jujutsu and Aikido and they were ALL there,, no conjecture or heresay... they are cool books...

also...Doju Nim Ji has told us that a lot of times Choi would show them a technique one time only...period...and they would have to get it themselves..Ji said sometimes he would do the technique wrong on purpose to get Choi to talk to him and teach him more but the wrong technique would cost him a beating first.... I have NEVER heard Doju Nim Ji EVER say anything bad about Choi,, he truly calls him his teacher and you can tell when he talks about him that there is a true love and respect there...
Michael Tomlinson

Michael Tomlinson

**American HKD** · 01-13-2005, 14:24

Originally Posted by Michael Tomlinson

In reading some of the books about old aikijujutsu training I found one passage in the back of one of the books in which the interviewer asked Ueshiba's son if he had ever heard or met Choi Yong Sool... he says in the book that he had seen him before and that his father knew him pretty well and actually wrote letters to him in Korea on occasion....

this is an approximation of what I read,, I don't have the book in front of me right now but I have it at home...

the seminar thing is not far fetched at all and in fact that is how Takeda taught.. he travelled around Japan to different areas regularly training military, government officials, etc.. he would actually train them for a ten day stint and then move on,, eventually looping back again to the same area... this is all in the two books I have... I forget the names but one is about Aikijujutsu training before WWII... the guy interviews a ton of old GM's in Jujutsu and Aikido and they were ALL there,, no conjecture or heresay... they are cool books...

also...Doju Nim Ji has told us that a lot of times Choi would show them a technique one time only...period...and they would have to get it themselves..Ji said sometimes he would do the technique wrong on purpose to get Choi to talk to him and teach him more but the wrong technique would cost him a beating first.... I have NEVER heard Doju Nim Ji EVER say anything bad about Choi,, he truly calls him his teacher and you can tell when he talks about him that there is a true love and respect there...
Michael Tomlinson

Michael Tomlinson

Mike that's Cool try to post of the books title etc.

I've always heard Doju Ji refer to Choi as his Master always in the possitive too.

I'd like to know what Choi thought of the Style of Hapkido Ji actually taught and made popular, if he approved of the kicks and cane etc.

I would think he did approve because they started the Kido Assoc. together and the KHA and those Assoc. taught Ji's system

Anyway I will ask Doju Ji in two weeks when I see him.

O Sensei would have been 30-40 years older than Choi right?

**howard** · 01-13-2005, 16:50

Originally Posted by American HKD

O Sensei would have been 30-40 years older than Choi right?

hi stuart, i assume you're referring to ueshiba... actually, he would have been about 20 years older, having been born in 1883.

if you are referring to takeda, i believe he was born in 1859, which would have made him about 45 years older than choi young sool.

regards, howard

**Paul B** · 01-14-2005, 16:58

Hi,

Have you guys ever done a comparison b/w videos/film of Choi and any Daito Ryu stuff? Just wondering.

I was just thinking.... now that there are videos out of the original Choi style,it would be an interesting contrast to compare to say,the tapes put out by Kondo Sensei,no? Hmm...

**Todd** · 01-14-2005, 19:27

Why do you think Choi never gave very much details about training in Japan?

I have herd that DJN Choi talked about his time in Japan often to some of his close students.

I have also herd that was a language issue as well.

www.millersmudo.com

**Todd** · 01-14-2005, 19:35

I have seen many DRAKJJ videos and have practiced it for about 2 years and from what I have seen DJN Chois Hapkido is a little different from what Kondo Sensei and mainline AKJJ does. Kondo Sensei also studied Aikido so it stands to reason DRAKJJ today would look a little different from DJN Chois Hapkido. There are also the differing cultures and according to DJN Choi he studied directly with Sokaku Takeda for 30 years. If this is true he would have trained longer with Sokaku than Tokemunne Takeda did.

www.millersmudo.com

**Danjun** · 01-29-2005, 18:00

as has his family. His daughter to this day is dumbfounded that people accuse her and her family of lying about the connection to Takeda.

Keep this in mind: Choi DJ was telling everyone about the Japanese origin of what he was teaching when every other Korean martial artist was lying about any Japanese connection/origin to whatever art they were teaching. He was telling his students that he was taught and was now teaching "daedong ryu hapkiyusul" (daito ryu aikijujitsu) when Koreans had no idea what that was and neither did most Westerners. There was no DRA fascination way back then - this jumping on the DRA gravy train is a fairly recent phenomena. If anything, Choi DJ had an incentive to cover up the DRA connection but he never did. Think people!

I've heard the following from practicioners of Japanese martial arts (especially Aikido):

1. "No records that he ever had DRA lessons even though Takeda kept meticulous records so he couldn't have had lessons."

I agree, I doubt Choi DJ ever had PAID lessons - he couldn't afford them. See more below.

2. "Choi saw some DRA practice and learned some techniques that way and then when he was in Korea, he mixed in some strikes and some other stuff."

Anyone who has ever tried to learn any of the hapki/aiki arts know how ludicrous this concept - that a beginner can learn just by watching - is. Ain't gonna happen. If you have already learned and gotten a very strong foundation (usually requires YEARS of training), then yes, you can learn some additional techniques by just watching.

Also, Choi DJ's skills were legendary in Daegu, Korea. Moreover, almost 100% of true Hapkido schools can trace themselves to him. If he didn't know what he was doing, would this be possible? Could all this expertise be built up by JUST OBSERVING?!

Moreover, as most in the Hapkido community are aware, the acrobatic kicks and certain other techniques did not originate from Choi DJ and he never taught them. To his dying day, Choi DJ taught the same curriculum.

3. "Choi Yong Sool didn't learn anything. Hapkido is Aikido with just some kicks thrown in."

This is truly an ignorant statement. I don't know of any Koreans who learned Aikido (i.e., under Ueshiba) before 1945. Moreover, anyone who has trained in both Hapkido and Aikido (like me) would easily see that while there are definitely certain similarities, there are also distinct fundamental differences (and I'm not talking about the strikes/atemi).

To add to the confusion are certain "Aikido" schools outside of Japan that mix Karate/TKD strikes with Aikido techniques. There are also "Hapkido" schools in Korea and the USA (won't get into this AGAIN) that essentially teach Aikido but refer to themselves as a unique and rare "Hapkido" school. Is it any wonder that people, even martial artists, look confused when anyone tries to explain?

**Danjun** · 01-29-2005, 18:16

Originally Posted by Todd

Why do you think Choi never gave very much details about training in Japan?

www.millersmudo.com

Stuart essentially asked the same question.

I understand that Choi DJ did speak with some of his students about his life and training in Japan and have heard some of those stories.

As to why he may not have discussed in detail his experiences in Japan with anyone that would listen:

To this day, ethnic Koreans suffer extreme prejudice in Japan. It is an accepted part of Japanese culture. As for how the Japanese treated Koreans pre-1945, Todd, remember, we are talking about a country (Japan) that forcibly took teenage Korean girls from their families to go to the front line to be gang raped by Japanese troops on a daily basis (if you ask Japanese about this - they'll deny that it ever took place and/or you will no longer have that Japanese as a friend). ALMOST ALL Koreans who for one reason or another lived in Japan before 1945 rarely speak about their experience let alone provide detailed explanations.

Example: If you understand the cultures and histories involved, you can read between the lines about the story of Mas Oyama, i.e., Choi Yong-I (Choi Bae Dal). Choi Yong-I chose to stay in Japan and thus, he could not and did not step on Japanese toes by reminding anyone about the extreme prejudice he faced. God forbid a Korean offend a Japanese!

Koreans and even Japanese (at least the older ones - the younger ones don't know too much about their own history unless the Japanese were the victims) all know this. It's only the Westerners who are so confused.

**Todd** · 01-29-2005, 18:43

Why do you think Choi never gave very much details about training in Japan?

This was not said by me! I think Stuart said this. I was just trying to answer his question.

I have herd that Choi talked often about his time in Japan with close students.

www.millersmudo.com

**Barrie** · 01-30-2005, 05:42

Dear Stuart,

DJN Choi's eldest daughter, Madam Choi Bok Sin, recently graciously agreed to an interview which was videotaped and is being transcribed at the present time.

During the interview she appears lively, animated, articulate and forthcoming about her memories of her life in Japan and Korea with her father. She has given many details of where they lived and what transpired.

Common courtesy dictates that she be allowed to peruse the transcription, amend it if necessary, and approve publication, which will take some time.

The information she has supplied leaves no doubt that her father trained and travelled with Takeda, and provides detailed accounts to some of the stories circulating about her father.

Much of her information will permit verification from other sources, and of course many questions have arisen from what she has said, which will need following up. All this will take time, patience and respect on the part of the interviewers, and graciousness and goodwill on her part.

Patience is the key word. Eventually we will have a truthful account of DJN Choi's association with Takeda Sokaku, and hopefully an end to all the speculation and debates.

Incidentally, Madam Choi Bok Sin has a 3rd degree from her father.

Kind regards,

Barrie Restall