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    Default Difference between Bujinkan & Genbukan

    Hello,
    I have noticed in several places on this forum where people have asked the differences between the Bujinkan & the Genbukan but no one has really given much of an answer.
    I have been in the Bujinkan for many years now and from what I have come to understand is there isn't really much difference at all.
    Hatsumi Sensei and Tanamura Sensei both trained under Takamatsu Sensei. Both of them were very high ranking students but before Takamatsu Sensei passed on he made Hatsumi Sensei the new Soke and Tanamura Sensei went on to teach on his own. I have no real info on why he parted from Hatsumi Sensei other then some hear say and conjecture so I guess that is a personal issue between them.
    So, to say there is any difference between the two systems other then teaching method or other minor thing would be incorrect seeing that the leaders of both systems came from the same source.
    Would this not seem correct? If you read S.K. Hayes' first book, "Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" Tanamura Sensei was Stephen's first teacher when he went to Japan.
    So I would have to say you couldn't do too bad to train in either system.
    Hope this helps.

    And as for To Shin Do, Stephen Hayes has not split from the Bujinkan. If you read "Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster: Revised and Updated Edition" co-authored by Stephen Hayes & Hatsumi Sensei they have a conversation about this issue in which Stephen explains he has just changed the name of what he is doing in order to distance himself from the stereo type the word Ninja carries in the U.S. brought on by the 80's Ninja boom and Sensei agrees with him on this point. Therefore, To Shin Do is still Bujinkan Ninjutsu from Stephen's perspective. He teaches it a bit differently and has incorporated a lot of the Mikkyo teachings as well but he still teaches the same system of knowledge.

    Ric

  2. #2
    Member Dale Seago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicBrannon
    Would this not seem correct?
    No, it wouldn't. My understanding of Tanemura sensei's training under Takamatsu is that, along with a group of Hatsumi sensei's students, Tanemura sensei met and trained with Takamatsu sensei exactly once -- one single day. The rest of his Takamatsu-den training, apart from what he received as Hatsumi sensei's student, came after the split when he sought out other surviving students of Takamatsu.

    I'd also say that, if you feel there's "not much difference at all", you're viewing things on a pretty superficial level. I'm not asserting that either the Bujinkan or the Genbukan is "better", but they're certainly significantly different.

    And as for To Shin Do, Stephen Hayes has not split from the Bujinkan.
    That is true; in fact, he trained at the Hombu in Japan just a few weeks ago, which I understand to be his first actual training back in "the old country" in years.

    If you read "Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster: Revised and Updated Edition" co-authored by Stephen Hayes & Hatsumi Sensei they have a conversation about this issue in which Stephen explains he has just changed the name of what he is doing in order to distance himself from the stereo type the word Ninja carries in the U.S. brought on by the 80's Ninja boom and Sensei agrees with him on this point. Therefore, To Shin Do is still Bujinkan Ninjutsu from Stephen's perspective. He teaches it a bit differently and has incorporated a lot of the Mikkyo teachings as well but he still teaches the same system of knowledge.
    I'll have to go back and check dates, but I'm pretty sure that book was originally published before TSD was created; so unless as a co-author Hayes has also Revised & Updated that conversation with Soke from years ago, they're not the same thing. Hayes still has a Bujinkan dojo in addition to his TSD training program -- NOT the same thing.

    I have been in the Bujinkan for many years now. . .
    So have I. Since a few years before Tanemura sensei left it, in fact. And with what you're putting out here, it really makes me wonder: Who's your teacher?
    'S coma leam, 's coma leam cogadh no sith,
    Marbhar 'sa cogadh, no crochar 'san t-sith mi.


    It's all the same to me war or peace,
    I'm killed in the war or hung during peace.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mikey Triangles's Avatar
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    Tanemura has also gone off to study and master many other styles, and there's the fact that Tanemura Sensei is from a Koga Ryu Family. When you study under Tanemura Sensei along with Genbukan Ninpo training you recieve training in many other styles.

    and to quote something George Kohler mentioned on another site:

    Tanemura Sensei said that it would have been almost impossible to train with Takamatsu Sensei since he was under Hatsumi Sensei. At that time Tanemura Sensei was a student of Hatsumi Sensei. Also, if he did go over Hatsumi Sensei's head, he would have been expelled (hamon in Japanese) because this would have been concidered rude.

    I believe John Lindsey stated several years ago in E-Budo that Tanemura Sensei only trained with him once, and that Tanemura Sensei thought of himself as a third generation student of Takamatsu Sensei.


    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/sho...p?threadid=4924



    Also I might mention that Tanemura Sensei trained under a couple other students of Takamatsu Sensei, Kimura Masaji and Sato Kinbei.
    Last edited by Mikey Triangles; 01-20-2005 at 12:52.

  4. #4
    Member Dale Seago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerKaBa
    Tanemura has also gone off to study and master many other styles, and there's the fact that Tanemura Sensei is from a Koga Ryu Family. When you study under Tanemura Sensei along with Genbukan Ninpo training you recieve training in many other styles.
    Yup, there's that too.

    Also I might mention that Tanemura Sensei trained under a couple other students of Takamatsu Sensei, Kimura Masaji and Sato Kinbei.
    Right you are -- those are the ones I was thinking of in my post above.

    Again, Mr. Brannon: Who is your teacher?
    'S coma leam, 's coma leam cogadh no sith,
    Marbhar 'sa cogadh, no crochar 'san t-sith mi.


    It's all the same to me war or peace,
    I'm killed in the war or hung during peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MerKaBa
    and there's the fact that Tanemura Sensei is from a Koga Ryu Family.
    And?

    I am (supposably) related to a British Naval hero from the 18th century without having learned the basic elements of naval warfare from that time.

    If Tanemura has any knowledge of Koga ryu ninjutsu, I would like to see references, statements, quotes, etc where I can see and confirm them for myself.

    I know more about the Koga ryu than 99.9 percent of those claiming knowledge of the art and would love to hear of a tradition that survived to the modern age that can be verified. Note, "I heard it on the internet" or "I heard it from my teacher" is not even close to what I consider being verified.

    I do read Japanese and have read things about Tanemura. Not one article or source has said that he is in anyway knowledgeable about Koga ryu ninjutsu. If I have overlooked something, please point me to the exact source in Japanese to recity this oversight.

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    Member Dale Seago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Roley
    I am (supposably) related to a British Naval hero from the 18th century without having learned the basic elements of naval warfare from that time.

    If Tanemura has any knowledge of Koga ryu ninjutsu, I would like to see references, statements, quotes, etc where I can see and confirm them for myself.
    Don, in fairness to Mike I didn't get the impression from his post that he was making that kind of claim: The family/lineage reference looked like just a neat historical thing -- very much like your comment above about your own family, or my own lineage/relationship to a man who is known to have been William Wallace's right-hand man in Scotland in his rising against the English in the 1290s. (Doesn't make my swordsmanship any better or help me to learn Gaelic. . . )

    On another note: Mr. Brannon. who is your teacher?
    'S coma leam, 's coma leam cogadh no sith,
    Marbhar 'sa cogadh, no crochar 'san t-sith mi.


    It's all the same to me war or peace,
    I'm killed in the war or hung during peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Seago
    my own lineage/relationship to a man who is known to have been William Wallace's right-hand man in Scotland in his rising against the English in the 1290s.
    Hey, my name is on alot of toilets
    George Kohler
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    Super Moderator Jay Bell's Avatar
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    psst....Dale...being that Wallace was an utter pr!ck of the first degree, I wouldn't let that get out too loud

    Signum Pacis Amor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Bell
    psst....Dale...being that Wallace was an utter pr!ck of the first degree, I wouldn't let that get out too loud
    Hey Jay,

    I don't know if I told you this but, I also come from the "Bell" family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Seago
    Don, in fairness to Mike I didn't get the impression from his post that he was making that kind of claim: The family/lineage reference looked like just a neat historical thing -- very much like your comment above about your own family, or my own lineage/relationship to a man who is known to have been William Wallace's right-hand man in Scotland in his rising against the English in the 1290s. (Doesn't make my swordsmanship any better or help me to learn Gaelic. . . )
    Wow, Dale, you were related to Hamish?
    On another note, it wasn't all that long ago that Mike's instructor was claiming Koga lineage...

    Jeff
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    Senior Member Mikey Triangles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreth
    On another note, it wasn't all that long ago that Mike's instructor was claiming Koga lineage...

    Jeff

    Sorry, but what are you talking about?
    Last edited by Mikey Triangles; 01-21-2005 at 14:09.

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    Super Moderator Jay Bell's Avatar
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    Hey George,

    Naw, I didn't know. Never would have guessed! (per your name...not a sneaky jab)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MerKaBa
    Sorry, but what are you talking about?
    Feel free to check here. I direct your attention to the first sentence of the fourth paragraph, which says:
    He then began training in Koga Ryu Ninjutsu in the Circle-of-One System, in which he now holds a 4th Degree Black Belt (Yondan).
    This is Ron Duncan's system.
    I also checked the Internet Web Archive, but I'm unable to get the older versions of the site to load.

    Jeff
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    Member Dale Seago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Bell
    psst....Dale...being that Wallace was an utter pr!ck of the first degree, I wouldn't let that get out too loud
    Oh, it gets better.

    I was referring to William Douglas (from dubh glas or "Black Creek", the place where he resided); alas, he was caught by the English and died in prison. His son, Sir James Douglas, was referred to as "Sir James the Good", probably by people who didn't want to get on his bad side: One modern historian has referred to him as a "pathological terrorist".

    Sir James fought alongside Robert the Bruce and was knighted by him at Bannockburn, but he's best remembered for incidents such as the "Douglas Larder" raid.

    To give him credit, though, he died trying to honor King Robert's dying request to have his heart taken to the Holy Land for burial. He was killed enroute, in battle with the Moors in Spain: Cut off and surrounded, he allegedly threw the casket with the heart into the thick of the enemy, crying, "Forward, brave heart, as ever thou were wont to do, and Douglas will follow thee or die".

    And now you know where the movie title comes from.
    Last edited by Dale Seago; 01-21-2005 at 18:45.
    'S coma leam, 's coma leam cogadh no sith,
    Marbhar 'sa cogadh, no crochar 'san t-sith mi.


    It's all the same to me war or peace,
    I'm killed in the war or hung during peace.

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    Super Moderator Jay Bell's Avatar
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    "Terrorist" seems to be very accurate to that whole lot...Bobbie Bruce included

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreth
    Feel free to check here. I direct your attention to the first sentence of the fourth paragraph, which says:


    He then began training in Koga Ryu Ninjutsu in the Circle-of-One System, in which he now holds a 4th Degree Black Belt (Yondan).

    This is Ron Duncan's system.
    I also checked the Internet Web Archive, but I'm unable to get the older versions of the site to load.

    Jeff
    How could that be considered "Claiming Koga Lineage"?


    I know Renshi Allie trained under Shihan Vasquez for many years before he met Soke Tanemura, but I have never actually heard him reffer to his training there as 'Koga Ryu', I always hear it reffered to as 'American Ninjutsu'. The only Koga Ryu Ninjutsu I've ever heard mentioned was Tanemura's.
    Last edited by Mikey Triangles; 01-21-2005 at 19:29.

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    Mike,

    The only Koga Ryu Ninjutsu I've ever heard mentioned was Tanemura's.
    Uhm?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Bell
    Mike,



    Uhm?

    Nevermind.

    I'm not nearly knowledgable enough to start arguing with you guys, but I remeber hearing that in Tanemura's Fundamental Taijutsu Vol.1 he goes into his line in the section on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. Again I could be wrong, that's just what I remember hearing mentioned.

  19. #19

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    Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I've been out.

    Now, I could be wrong in my ascertation of Genbukan & Bujinkan as I have never studied Genbukan nor sought out anyone who has. I merely said, "From my understanding" I never said my teacher told me (As he was always very reluctant to speak of it) and I never said it was fact. Obviously I was mistaken on many counts and thatís fine, you live and you learn. I don't have a problem with that so thank you for setting me straight. I will do a little more research and get back to you.

    As for "Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster: Revised and Updated Edition" this book was originally released as "Ninja Secrets from the Grandmaster" back in the late 80's, early 90's so yes, in this respect it was released before TSD. However, it was re-released as "Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster: Revised and Updated Edition" January 2003 in hardcover. This addition has been updated with several more chapters including the conversation I mentioned above.
    I didn't know Stephen had the two dojos. I was of the understanding that he was just doing the TSD. Thatís good to know. Is it in Columbus also?

    Thanks,

    Ric

    P.S.
    And it's Ric, I'm too young for Mr. ;-)

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    Ok, Ric, but you still never answered Dale's question. You said you've been in the bujinkan for many years. Who is your teacher?

    "Forward, brave heart, as ever thou were wont to do, and Douglas will follow thee or die".
    And now you know where the movie title comes from.
    I was just watching Braveheart the other day (for the 2nd or 3rd time), and I noticed for the 1st time Robert the Bruce paraphrasing Robert Burns, "Scotts Who Hae" with the line "you've bled with Wallace, now bleed with me!" I've always liked that poem (it's one of my favorite Burns' poems). I've never understood why Mel Gibson made the movie about William Wallace, and not Robert the Bruce. Robert the Bruce was the bigger hero (in my thinking), but the movie portrays him as half a villain.
    -Andy Mest
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