Loyality and Knowing When It Is Time to Leave

**dao** · 01-23-2005, 13:04

I know that is sensitive subject for everyone and it has been touched on in various threads through the years but, I don't think that we've ever had a thread that is devoted to it. I'm curious to hear what people think and about your MA journey and how loyalty plays into your decisions.

When I left my previous school I thought it was primarily because of other obligations I had taken on - taking care of a dog, a house, additional responsibilities at work. But, I also came to realize that I did have some resentment about fees and also I started to wonder what else was out there in the world of MA. Not that I doubted the value of what I was had been learning it was just that when I started I had no idea that I was making a long-term commitment- I just bumbled into a class at the YMCA, tried it, liked it, got more and more involved at the YMCA and at the parent school, I took by 1st Degree Black Belt test (passed) then within a week I got very ill and couldn't do anything for a couple months. I tried going back a couple times but, it never felt right after my illness. I never formally quit I just slowly stopped going (and paying). I realize that the higher you go in rank the more you owe to your instructor and to art. Sometimes I do feel quilty like I should still be there but, never enough to go back. And I still have no reservations about the value of what I learned and I think all of the people I trained under at the school were great. Also its been hard for me to fully commit to learning a new art because I still miss what I had.

So what does a student owe and when do the owe it?

**tkdcanada** · 01-23-2005, 13:22

Debra, I feel very much like you. However, my first responsibility is to myself and I have to do what's right for me. My instructor has no stake in my life, so I don't feel guilty. I was feeling that resentment too. Loyalty is a two way street and your instructor owes it to you as much as you owe it to him/her. I knew i was in a long-term commitment but I also have commitments in other areas of my life which are more primary. We are all on our own path and the only one who can really know what's best is us. I put everything into my training, so I have no debt. I will continue when I reach some other goals I'm working on right now but I intend to always keep the ball in my court.

**Abbax8** · 01-23-2005, 14:31

I agree with TKD. Loyalty is a two way street. A student should be free to continue their studies or leave as lifes demands dictates. As an instructor though, I will say a phone call or a brief conversation at the dojo or even a letter or e-mail explaining that circumstances dictate your absence is very much appreciated. That way the instructor is not left wondering what they did wrong to chase you away.

Peace

Dennis

**Paul B** · 01-23-2005, 14:51

Hello Ladies,

I find myself in a similar situation. After my teacher left,I am also questioning what it is that I should do in regards to staying with my current school,or striking out on my own.

The fact that right now I have no teacher rules out the loyalty I would feel towards a "Head Instructor" type,however,I do have two seniors that have helped me along,and are now left with quite a mess to try to patch together.

Problem is,that they would prefer a different approach to the MA than I feel is right for me. I don't know how much further I can progress if I stay with them and the changes they are contemplating to put in use.

There are no apparent benefits (in regards to personal growth)I could gain by staying,yet I feel like since they have been there from the beginning of my study,I feel that I owe it to them to stick around and try to help them out as much as I can.

I do think that once everything is back together again,I probably will strike out on my own,because the differences in mindset are too great to be remedied,and I need to keep growing,not stagnate. I do not think bad of them for their views on MA,but I do know what it is that I need to keep going forward,so in that light I don't think it is "dis-loyal" of me to move on.

**David Craik** · 01-23-2005, 16:37

My teachers have given something of themselves to me, so I would consider being up front as to your reasons for leaving the best course of action. In some instances, the teacher may even reevaluate whatever caused you to leave, instead of wondering what happened. I think in most cases, one owes him or her at least that much.

As Dennis says though, loyalty is a two way street. If conditions or fees are unacceptable to you, there is no reason to stay.

**Spartan** · 01-23-2005, 18:32

Should it be any different from the loyalty you should show your college professors, tennis instructors, piano teachers or your drill instructors?

**David Craik** · 01-24-2005, 04:41

I think loyalty to a drill instructor is generally a wee bit different than that held for a piano teacher. At least is was for us.

**TonyU** · 01-24-2005, 04:58

Originally Posted by Soulend

I think loyalty to a drill instructor is generally a wee bit different than that held for a piano teacher. At least is was for us.

Yeap, I wouldn't describe it as loyalty, more like fear, intimidated, and scared sh******.

**kodanjaclay** · 01-24-2005, 06:21

Loyalty in the martial arts sense is normally obiescent training. I don't know that I agree to the term unless you are talking about training with teacher x and behind his back studying with teacher y at the same time.

You must also remember two things... one you are a consumer. If you are not getting what you are paying for you need to rectify that or you are being negligent... with you as the victim. Two, if the art is not valid for you, you need to move on and find something that is. Not every art is meant for everyone but you may not find this until you have studied for a while. Why? Because until you have actually done something and have a general idea, you have no way of knowing what parts of training actually speak to you and what parts are merely window dressing.

**Spartan** · 01-24-2005, 12:14

Originally Posted by TonyU

Yeap, I wouldn't describe it as loyalty, more like fear, intimidated, and scared sh******.

Heck, that was the way students used to feel toward their Kungfu masters, in the Jurassic era.

**DragonMind** · 01-24-2005, 14:29

Originally Posted by dao

I know that is sensitive subject for everyone and it has been touched on in various threads through the years but, I don't think that we've ever had a thread that is devoted to it. I'm curious to hear what people think and about your MA journey and how loyalty plays into your decisions.

When I left my previous school I thought it was primarily because of other obligations I had taken on - taking care of a dog, a house, additional responsibilities at work. But, I also came to realize that I did have some resentment about fees and also I started to wonder what else was out there in the world of MA. Not that I doubted the value of what I was had been learning it was just that when I started I had no idea that I was making a long-term commitment- I just bumbled into a class at the YMCA, tried it, liked it, got more and more involved at the YMCA and at the parent school, I took by 1st Degree Black Belt test (passed) then within a week I got very ill and couldn't do anything for a couple months. I tried going back a couple times but, it never felt right after my illness. I never formally quit I just slowly stopped going (and paying). I realize that the higher you go in rank the more you owe to your instructor and to art. Sometimes I do feel quilty like I should still be there but, never enough to go back. And I still have no reservations about the value of what I learned and I think all of the people I trained under at the school were great. Also its been hard for me to fully commit to learning a new art because I still miss what I had.

So what does a student owe and when do the owe it?

There are terms we use that I think get confused at times: Loyalty, Respect, Commitment, Duty... I'll give you my take on them for what its worth.

Respect. This word has two meanings. First is to hold someone/something in high esteem. This is the sense we are talking about when we argue the merits of BB ranking and titles. This is also the sense of the word we are talking about when we say respect has to be earned.

The second meaning is courteous regard for another. This is the sense we mean when we tell folks on BudoSeek to show respect in their posts. This form of respect is NOT earned but can be LOST by one's actions. This is also what is troubling you about your former school. By leaving without notice or explanation, you have not shown respect to your instructors. They are left to wonder if your circumstances have simply changed (for which they are not responsible) or did they do something to cause you to leave that needs to be rectified.

Loyalty. For me, this is faithful adherence and support of a person, duty or cause for which I accept their constituted authority. The root of the word comes from the Latin word for law. That is where the dilemma comes from. Loyalty derives its power by virtue of the premise that the object of loyalty is obliged to be just and fair. When that object fails to uphold those standards, it has lost its authority to demand loyalty. We have seen many examples in the MA world of late in which the person or organization that expects our loyalty has failed to uphold its obligations. We, therefore, must withdraw our loyalty lest we fall into the trap of blind loyalty. I don't think that is the case here. Your words still express support of your instructors and school and I would call that loyalty.

However, another problem is when one tries to confuse authority with a commercial relationship. The fact that you pay a school/instructor for lessons does not grant them authority over you. You are a consumer of a product they provide. Your obligation is to provide fair remuneration and theirs is to deliver a product of value commensurate with the price. From your comments elsewhere about their differential pricing, I'd say that they have failed to live up to their end of the relationship. You are perfectly free to end that relationship. I would suggest you let them know that this is one of the reasons for your unhappiness with their operations as a commercial venture.

Commitment. To pledge or engage oneself to a particular course of action. What we often forget is that an individual will have many commitments. We often look down on someone as "not having the commitment" when they fail to live up to our expectations of their behavior, but we are wrong to do so. We need to be careful to determine exactly what the course of action is that has been commited to. Until we are talking about the same thing, we can't judge someone's commitment. For example, if I commit to making one class a week and I do so, I have made my commitment. If yours is to make six, wonderful, but don't assume mine is any less because it is different.

Duty. The moral or legal obligation to follow a certain line of conduct. This word has been much abused in the MA world, just as loyalty has been. Notice that central to the existance of a duty is the moral/legal obligation. That obligation can only come from an appropriate authority. And again, that authority has an obligation to you as well.

To answer your last question. What you owe is respect (2nd form) to your colleagues, students, instructors, school and organization until such time as their actions remove that obligation. You owe loyalty to your instructors and organization so long as they uphold their obligations to you by virtue of the authority they have been granted. You owe a duty to your instructors, school and organization so long as they uphold their moral and/or legal obligations to you. You owe commitment to yourself and others so long as you desire to be respected. You have earned my respect (1st form) by the person you have been in the five years I've known you.

**Akuma** · 01-25-2005, 09:37

Good post as always, Barry. I have just been reading "Living the Martial Way", as it was recommended by several members on this board. It has some very interesting stuff on loyalty. It also talks about how it really is a two way street and that you should not give it if it is not being shown you. However, the author makes a very important point, imho, regarding our "consumer" approach to the arts. Here is a direct quote" We live in a cash and carry society. We buy goods and services, and once we've paid the vendor, we feel no further obligation to him. But martial training is different. Yes, you pay fees to support the training hall, but your traditional instructor is not selling a service. He's giving you part of his life". It goes on to talk about the on we take on for taking this knowledge and how we repay this debt with our loyalty. Mabye I'm just being old school here, but I feel a fierce loyalty to my instructor and grandmaster for the time they've invested in me. Yes, I do pay my instructor a monthly fee, but I feel that it is really nothing compared to everything I get from studying my art. I pay more for my cable bill...and all I get from that is lazier!

peace.

**kodanjaclay** · 01-25-2005, 13:19

Len,

Loyalty can also be abused. There was a time when that writing was valid but today with the plethora of abusive instructors I don't believe so. After almost 2 and a half decades I have seen this scenario play out over and over again... unfortunately.

**Spartan** · 01-25-2005, 16:14

Originally Posted by Akuma

.... He's giving you part of his life. ... .

I hate to say this, but you are romanticizing the whole issue. Back in the Jurassic days when the kungfu masters assumed the role, authority and responsibility of a father, may be you could make a case for that assertion. Those days are long gone. The instructor is your instructor. He is teaching you some skills, not giving you part of his life. People open schools to teach. People don't open schools to give their lives away.

**Erik** · 01-25-2005, 17:14

If your instructors are feeling miffed, part of it may be that you did not have a talk with them and instead suddenly vanished. That might be what they are displeased about - your manner of leaving, not your leaving itself.

Go tell them you got really sick and that it made you re-evaluate your life, hence the change. Tell him/her that you miss the group and the art but you need to focus on other stuff right now.

I think that might clear the air some.

Good luck.

**tkdcanada** · 01-25-2005, 17:27

Originally Posted by Spartan

I hate to say this, but you are romanticizing the whole issue. Back in the Jurassic days when the kungfu masters assumed the role, authority and responsibility of a father, may be you could make a case for that assertion. Those days are long gone. The instructor is your instructor. He is teaching you some skills, not giving you part of his life. People open schools to teach. People don't open schools to give their lives away.

I have to agree with Kenneth on this one.

You pay, they teach, even. I would say, that you owe it to your instructor to never misuse what you learn, but that's about it.

**Abbax8** · 01-25-2005, 19:16

Originally Posted by kodanjaclay

Len,

Loyalty can also be abused. There was a time when that writing was valid but today with the plethora of abusive instructors I don't believe so. After almost 2 and a half decades I have seen this scenario play out over and over again... unfortunately.

The problem with students giving their total loyalty to a MA instuctor is that in the end they are just a person skilled in teaching a fighting art. In the beginning you two are probably strangers. After some time you are acquaintences,but your relationship may still be mostly superficial, held together only by MA lessons. Students can fall into a trap of their on making by imagining their instructor truly is a person who walks the Martial Way, IS HONEST AND GOOD. How do you know? I have heard horror stories of senior MA's paying hundreds of dollars to attend a clinic where the senior instructor is drunk the whole weekend. There are GOOD instructors out there who strive to do their best everyday, and others who truly don't care as long the dojo has plenty of bodies in it, and I'm not talking just McDojos. When people start talking about loyalty and instructors giving you part of their life, I get scared. In this world if you find a quality MA insructor, say Thank You. If you find one who truly embodies Budo and is a quality teacher, you've been blessed. Just remember how tenuous relationships are in life, friendships and marriages die. Be careful in your praise and trust of another person. Some do deserve it.Others don't. The pain of being decieved, weather you did it to yourself or it was done to you, HURTS.

Peace

Dennis

**David Craik** · 01-25-2005, 19:59

Originally Posted by Spartan

I hate to say this, but you are romanticizing the whole issue..(snip)..People don't open schools to give their lives away.

I suppose this depends on the school. I have met some that make next to nothing if anything from teaching, and teach due to a very real love for the art. All of these had 'real' jobs as well. The last one taught in return for whatever a student could afford to help pay the rent and keep the lights burning in the dojo - suggested fee was about $10 a month if they could spare it. Incidentally, this fellow was one of the most impressive men I have yet to meet.

Koryu sensei rarely teach to make a living, and I know of one who will not award a license to teach unless you have and maintain some other means of making a living because he feels that teaching the art should be a labor of love, not a means of lining one's pockets.

I realize that this doesn't seem to be the case here, but figured I'd put it out there just the same. I feel that my teachers have given me a part of their lives, which is why the budo is not in the same class as learning how to fix small engines or play tennis. If that makes me a romantic, then so be it.

**Spartan** · 01-25-2005, 20:55

It is all good that you love your instructor and your instructor loves you. But we should not impose that as the standard which everyone else must adhere to nor measure up to.

Dennis is absolutely correct. We should be realistic about the instructor-student relationship.

The BS flag goes right up if the instructor expects and demands special deference, loyalty or obedience. The ones who are genuinely worthy, NEVER ask nor DEMAND it. They earn it by virtue of their sheer decency and integrity.

**David Craik** · 01-26-2005, 04:45

Originally Posted by Spartan

It is all good that you love your instructor and your instructor loves you. But we should not impose that as the standard which everyone else must adhere to nor measure up to.

That's a strawman. Never said a thing about "imposing standards which everyone must adhere to", or "loving" anyone. I pointed out that some instructors don't make a living off of teaching, and thus the teacher-student relationship may be different than if the dojo is run for profit.

I already gave my opinion in my first post to this thread - if you are unhappy, give the teacher the courtesy of telling him the reason and by all means leave.