Male intrudes female self-defense class

**kodanjaclay** · 01-25-2005, 21:26

Actually it is. All universities have codes of conduct. Document the incidents and follow the proper chain of events. In fact, such an institution has a legal duty to ensure certain things are followed. For them to fail to do so, opens them up to culpable negligence.

**dao** · 01-25-2005, 22:09

First thought, a class teaching the students how to defend themselves in high heels...

**robar1** · 01-26-2005, 10:43

I am trying my best to follow this thread..... but where did the original poster state that the male was causing any problems directly? Where was he being inappropriate? Where did he make any inappropriate comments?

Document any problems with behavior or comments, but make sure you do it for every student. All he would need to show is that any other student said something inappropriate and he would be able to demonstrate that he was singled out. That would not be good.

Robert Barkus

**kmtsd** · 01-26-2005, 13:17

This guy has been mildy disruptive...mostly by demanding everyone pay attention to him...he sits in the middle of the classroom...attempts to answer every question...to my knowledge he hasn't said anything degrading directly...his goal seems to be to disrupt the class by "being a wise a**" he has an answer for every question...he's not necessarily called on to answer the question...he interrupts lectures by declaring his opinion of whatever topic... the class has only met 4 times now...tomorrow is number 5

but on the political side...the dean and college have now called my instructor and told him that, now they can not offer a "women's only" self-defense class because of title IX...now they are telling him he will have to change the name of the class to self-defense and "adjust the curriculum" so that it is appropriate...

At this point it looks like my instructor plans to "bow out"...as he sees it he teaches two karate schools-boys and girls... this class is a crime-prevention class for women NOT a self-defense class for everyone...he says they will have to find someone else to teach "self-defense". This is not why he signed up.

As for the idea that this guy could be someone dangerous, my instructor also brought up that point...my instructor is also an ex-cop and superintendent of a juvenile detention center.... he says the arrogance of the guy gives him a "wrong feeling" ...many rapists pride themselves on doing a crime and getting away with it...may this guy is one of them... he has had several conversations with the guy--telling him that his actions are not sensitive to the idea of the class...and the guy doesn't seem to get it.

In all the commotion I don't think we discussed a background check ... and I will get right on that!

I don't know if the sexual harrassment idea will hold up... coincidentally my instructor just had a self-defense seminar for a group of women lawyers and they didn't seem to have any good input regarding the problem.

Maybe self defense in high heels would be a good idea...

We are still looking into the possibility of changing the class to a "non-credit course" and perhaps we will be allowed to restrict attendance to women only... unfortunately I think my instructor will then lose the stipend he was given to teach the class...in which case he loses some interest in continueing the class...he has taught/volunteered to teach self-defense for many years and has been teaching it for the county's high school girls for over ten years... he was not looking for another "volunteer" opportunity.
I said well then thats sad...if you quit you should atleast offer the class outside of the college to any girls who wish to complete this semester--

The classes do a lot of good and help to "save lives" its a shame that they may not be able to continue in their present fashion because of this arrogant jerk.

**Erik** · 01-26-2005, 13:27

I believe that, by law, one may not discriminate by gender (or race, etc.) in a college, so you might well be stuck with him unless you find a decent reason to toss him out.

Given what you just wrote, Candace, I think the previous advice about documenting everything, each attitude-adjustment conversation, is a sound idea.

Also, if you wish for him to shut it, then I'd address it as a disruption problem and cite how much noise he makes, argue that he interrupts lecture, takes 90% (or so) of the time, etc. If you wish to toss him out, make sure that you are citing legit reasons.

I tossed a guy out of a class I taught at the university because he sat in the front row, read the paper, and chuckled. I threw him out and failed him for that unit we were covering. The grounds were that he was voluntarily disruptive - that he was making distraction through what he was doing, not just through being there.

If you make it a gender problem then you open up the possibility for lots of Title IX arguing and perhaps litigation. He may ultimately fail in this (or may not), but it would create further pain for you in dealing with this.

**diamondgirl** · 01-26-2005, 13:37

I just wanted to give my two cents about this issue from the point of view of a person who attended an all-women's college.

I think there are tremendous benefits to single-sex education, and I think it is a pity that the legislation enacted in order to prevent people from being maliciously EXcluded from things has been manipulated in order to maliciously INclude people in things. This applies to both sexes.

That said. Every now and then in college, we would have a male student in class. Exchange students, cross-registered students from other schools, whatever. And a funny thing was, you really got to notice in your all-female classes that women and men conduct their learning very differently when they are left to their own sex. After getting used to 'woman learning' style, attending a class with a guy was very weird. Most of them were exactly as you describe this guy (though maybe not so wise-a@@y) - aggressive, jokey, answering all the questions first, always ready to act like he and the teacher were the only people in the room - it really irritated the hell out of some of us. So, keep in mind that when we get used to learning by ourselves, men's more aggressive, out-loud, 'get what you can grab' style sometimes seems very jarring and ugly.

Of course, this particular guy wanting to take a women's self defense class *sounds* extremely creepy, and he might be one of those guys who just wants revenge on that chick who wanted to go to the Citadel, but still. Boys act very weird in girls' classes. Just throwing this out there.

Disclaimer: I am speaking based on personal observations of myself, fellow classmates and professors in college. I am not saying men are evil pigs, or that women are inherently nicer. Just that I have noticed funny differences between all-female and mixed classes' learning styles. I pretend no knowledge of what men get up to by themselves in their own classes.

**Harlan** · 01-26-2005, 14:18

Interesting timing. I just suggested this past week that my department offer a "Karate for Women's Self-Defense" (and another for males) workshop. My thought was that the title would encourage women where I work to at least think about taking a martial art, and that women would be more willing to try it if in an all female class. My thinking was that the curriculum would address issues of being weak, old, and smaller than a thug....but that could apply to males as well. My thought was not to support a course where 'breasts need only apply."

Whatever the reason, the (male) student is there. The teacher can revamp his syllabus to address all the above issues (Federal funding considerations, possible discrimanation, etc.). If he is nervous about disruption, he can partner the student for the rest of term. If the student is out of line...he can take action and get rid of him...as well and privately remind the student that a negative attitude/disruption will result in a lower grade/hurt his CPA.

Personally, I would not take a hands-on course that was too talky/touchy-feely. Better to partner a bigger, smelly male with mass and identify panic right away than talk ones fears to death.

**Bad Karma** · 01-27-2005, 11:02

You can't discriminate. The sexual harrassment angle will be crap because of title IX or whatever it is (unless he actually does it). That will be the precedence for putting everything back the way it was and thereby effectively making the title (whatever) defunct. I think I read where the Dean has already informed of the need to change the name of the class?

Honestly, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Don't get so wrapped up and step back for a clearer view.

Peace

**Erik** · 01-27-2005, 11:27

Would you folks be interested in a thread about the differences between men's learning vs. women's learning?

Especially in environments where one must actively participate, such as in sports & MAs, as opposed to fading into the crowd taking notes in a lecture.

Could we start such a thread without it getting out of hand? This is interesting to me.

**dao** · 01-27-2005, 12:23

If you think its an interesting topic which deserves its own thread by all means start a new thread. If it starts to get out of hand thats one of the reasons why Mandeigh and I are here.

**Harlan** · 01-27-2005, 12:32

Only if the question is rethought.

"Own the language and win the argument", or "pick the site and win the battle". "women vs men learning" sets up for a discussion limited to a perceived gender difference...ellicits only biased responses.

In the field of education, and psychology this question has been looked at extensively...so what would make it different if only applying to learning a martial art? The experiential aspect? Then do male/female ballet dancers learn (or should it be learn a specific subject) differently?

**David Craik** · 01-27-2005, 20:51

I say if females can sue men's clubs, colleges, teams, and associations for entrance (and win) then he has every right to take any class he wants. "Equal" means precisely that, and you can't have it both ways.

**tkdcanada** · 01-27-2005, 21:13

Originally Posted by Soulend

I say if females can sue men's clubs, colleges, teams, and associations for entrance (and win) then he has every right to take any class he wants. "Equal" means precisely that, and you can't have it both ways.

That's pretty much how I see it too.

**Spartan** · 01-27-2005, 21:31

Let me see if I get this right. Some wussy has an ego problem and 20 girls are deprived of a chance to learn how to defend themselves? Since when does this country stands for this kind of garbage? Laws are subject to interpretation. There are bona fide reasons to discriminate in this situation. They should make a legal test case out of this. The administration should not just row over and play possum over this politically correct BS.

I missed those days when we could just take the jerk outside and gave him a 'wall to wall' counselling session. The good ol days!

**tkdcanada** · 01-27-2005, 21:43

Originally Posted by Spartan

Let me see if I get this right. Some wussy has an ego problem and 20 girls are deprived of a chance to learn how to defend themselves? Since when does this country stands for this kind of garbage? Laws are subject to interpretation. There are bona fide reasons to discriminate in this situation. They should make a legal test case out of this. The administration should not just row over and play possum over this politically correct BS.

I missed those days when we could just take the jerk outside and gave him a 'wall to wall' counselling session. The good ol days!

Without being there, we can only speculate as to his motivation which may or may not be due to 'ego'. Him just being there does not deprive anyone from learning anything........it may be somewhat uncomfortable for some, but that's about it. What makes him any different than some female making a point about her having every right to participate in some all male activity (a woman on an all men's team sport, girls in boyscouts....) and making the guys uncomfortable?

**robar1** · 01-27-2005, 22:00

Originally Posted by Soulend

I say if females can sue men's clubs, colleges, teams, and associations for entrance (and win) then he has every right to take any class he wants. "Equal" means precisely that, and you can't have it both ways.

Very true. There is an easy fix. The school allows the instructor to use the facilities for free. The students pay the instructor an arranged fee, and then pay the school for the credit hours. They can then take a PRIVATE class, and the school can accept the time in the private class for a specified amount of credit hours.

There are many examples of this lack of equality. Ever heard of the "United Caucasian College Fund", or "White College Reunion Week"? Yeah, those would go over real well! But, for some reason, the "United Negro College Fund" is ok, and so is "Black College Reunion Week". It is even ok to have women only health clubs. Can men get out of (free and clear) parental responsibility? Women can.

Bottom line, is, life is not fair. You either deal with it, change it, or spend a lot of your time being miserable.

In the case of the subject...... so far the male in question really hasn't done anything objectionable other than joining the class. The women in the class could turn the tables on this guy, and let the experience make them stronger, physically and emotionally.

Robert Barkus

**Spartan** · 01-27-2005, 22:27

Originally Posted by tkdcanada

Without being there, we can only speculate as to his motivation which may or may not be due to 'ego'. Him just being there does not deprive anyone from learning anything........it may be somewhat uncomfortable for some, but that's about it. What makes him any different than some female making a point about her having every right to participate in some all male activity (a woman on an all men's team sport, girls in boyscouts....) and making the guys uncomfortable?

May be not his ego. However, just b/c there are some female doing something wrong for whatever reason, does not make it right for a male to reciprocate. There is no reason for him to be there.

"Him just being there does not deprive anyone from learning anything" : Isn't the instructor planning on quiting as a consequence? Then, wouldn't the other students being deprived of their lessons?

**Kaoru** · 01-28-2005, 02:32

Originally Posted by shinansharpe

For more information about me look at www.jiujitsujapones.com

This thread isn't about you. Please stop bragging. It's annoying. I doubt you were secret service anyway. That can be checked, believe it or not. And, I'm not lying either. You'd better cut it out before you get caught in a lie. Every post you make you have to brag. Please stop.

"Fact and fiction are two different truths"

-Patricia MacLachlan, author, in "The Facts and Fictions of Minna Pratt"

And please put your full first and last name in your sig. It is the rule here. I know your name is John Sharpe, so put it in your sig. The mods have asked you nicely, so do it please. Or, they'll ban you.

**Mandeigh Wells** · 01-28-2005, 04:25

bloody hell.......I wake up and read this thread and horror of horrors I find my self agreeing with Kenneth

This has nothing to do with women being allowed in the golf club and there are still plenty of sports where women don't get a look in and appart from equestrianism, there are very few sports that are not segregated.....thats not what this is about. I am going to make an assumption here....a Womans self defence class??? isn't that targeting a specific group.....ie tending to look for more vunerable women who feel they either need to be able to defend themselves, have no confidence for a regular class or have perhaps been a victim in the past......? Thats why it is advertised as such.....to enabel this specific group to get some training. Personally I wouldn't care less about joining a women only group......but there are plenty of woman who wouldn't contemplate thinking about joining a mixed group. I have students who have been told by their husbands/partners and even sons that they are useless and will never manage.......now if you have been fed this kind of BS over many years and even start to believe it...you become a vunerable person in society, and if a woman only class makes you feel like you are in a safe learning environement and you have the chance to learn a skill that at very least will give you back your self esteme and maybe just might save your life.....then you know where you can shove equality....... its not a level playing field to start with.

Looking through some info in the UK I found a taiji teacher (who does appear for focus on taijiquan not tai cheeeese) who offeres separate gay/lesbian/bi classes.......so does that mean you are excluded if you are heterosexual??

There are many examples of this lack of equality. Ever heard of the "United Caucasian College Fund", or "White College Reunion Week"? Yeah, those would go over real well! But, for some reason, the "United Negro College Fund" is ok, and so is "Black College Reunion Week".

we also have the Society of Black Lawyers....and the MOBO awards (Music of black origin).....but the funniest one, only this week we were told that the singing of Baaa Baaa black sheep in playschools was banned cos it was racist

what you don't get black sheep anymore??? I saw one just yesterday...do I have to go an poke my eyes out now....

Get a grip world!

**David Craik** · 01-28-2005, 05:05

Originally Posted by Spartan

Since when does this country stands for this kind of garbage?

It's been standing for it for years. The case of the men's club getting sued comes to mind. This was a club for old dudes to sip brandy, smoke cigars and BS with each other in large overstuffed chairs...nothing that would interest any woman I know in the slightest. Nonetheless, they were sued on the basis that they excluded women from membership and lost. The woman that sued them didn't even go to the place anyway, even after she won the case.

I actually agree that the guy in the women's class should be excluded, but the woman mentioned above should be as well. It's a double standard - if you formed a men's self defense class and refused a female student there would be hell to pay, and the majority of people would agree with her and rail against her exclusion. And god forbid anyone suggested taking her out back and beating her up, a la Kenneth's tough guy tactics. Turn the tables and it's somehow okay though, just as it's okay for black comedians to make derisive comments about whites on stage but not vice versa, lest there be riots in the streets.

I'm about the least PC person one is likely to run across, but if rules and standards are to be applied, then they should be applied equally. The problem with many people is apparently that they wish to be considered "more equal" than anyone else.

The solution to the problem is quite simple, and involves neither violent nor legal recource. Simply have an in-depth group discussion on menstruation and 'female problems' at every class. The guy will last two weeks, tops.