Simplicity of Style?

[American HKD]

Greetings,

What would be considered a simple and pratical style of Kali?

I was involved with Pekiti Tirsia about 10 yrs ago and I felt it was very complicated.

[Cliff Hargrave]

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

[American HKD]

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

The dog brother are all students of Leo Gaje Jr. head of the Pekeiti trisia system the same system I first studied.

However I don't know what they did to modify it to make it simpler?

[KIT]

www.florofighting.com

[Cliff Hargrave]

I heard good things about Ray Floro.

I know the DB are Gaje guys, at least Knaus was, and some of the others were Inosanto guys. Now they are from several different branches. They tend to be more straight forward sparring stuff and not a lot of fancy things.

[jwinch2]

They tend to be more straight forward sparring stuff and not a lot of fancy things.

I'll say! I just watched some of the videos on the Dog Brothers site and much of what they did looked like they were just swinging away at each other with little or no technique! One of the videos showed a brand new student sparring with a instructor or a senior student and there was an obvious skill difference there but that was about it.

Keep in mind that I have had exactly zero exposure to any Fillipino arts so I'm sure what looks like a free for all to me might very well hide alot of technique that I am not sophisticated enough to detect. Also, i'm sure that any of them would put a hurting on me in about 5 seconds...

I guess what I am trying to say is, given what I have heard and read about the "flow" of the Fillipino arts I expected something different.

Anyone else have a comment on this?

[Cliff Hargrave]

Basics, speed, and power. That is all that really works in any martial art. The more complicated any art gets, the less likely it is going to work for real.

[American HKD]

I'll say! I just watched some of the videos on the Dog Brothers site and much of what they did looked like they were just swinging away at each other with little or no technique! One of the videos showed a brand new student sparring with a instructor or a senior student and there was an obvious skill difference there but that was about it.

Keep in mind that I have had exactly zero exposure to any Fillipino arts so I'm sure what looks like a free for all to me might very well hide alot of technique that I am not sophisticated enough to detect. Also, i'm sure that any of them would put a hurting on me in about 5 seconds...

I guess what I am trying to say is, given what I have heard and read about the "flow" of the Fillipino arts I expected something different.

Anyone else have a comment on this?

Greetings,

The DB films did look like alot of swinging little use of the triangle footwork, little feining, etc. Maybe thety were tired?

After basis block and counter drills, I dont see alot of use for all the fancy drills as Cliff said, besides good fun and extra coordination.

Tuhon Bill Mcgrath (PT) did teach 5 basis strikes which he said was univerally in most numbering systems and quite a few drills for them, that's maybe all you really need?


In comparison:

As a Hapkido practioner it's seems our drills are actually very close to how you really use the material for sparring/self defense. Close to reality IMO.

One reason I quit trainning in Kali is because I felt that we could never achieve the desired results. The defensive capability isn't even close to offensive capability of the system from my expirience.

I believe someone with as little as 2 years with a knife could win over someone with 10 years empty hand from the same system, that's way out of balance.

Any Thoughts?

[KIT]

You might want to check out Southnarc as well. He is a PT guy who really field stripped his stuff down to the nuts and bolts for offensive knife work.

He has a DVD series coming out, the first knife one is done with another on the way:

www.shivworks.com

[Tony Dismukes]

I just watched some of the videos on the Dog Brothers site and much of what they did looked like they were just swinging away at each other with little or no technique!

The technique is definitely there, but it's hard to see if you don't know what to look for. (Just like a HW boxing match might look like random swinging if you haven't studied boxing, or a MMA clinch might look like two guys just pushing each other if you had no wrestling/jujutsu background.) Timing & distancing is a big factor. In the "footwork" volume of the Dog Brothers first tape series, there's some footage of Eric Knauss sparring with an expert using a bullwhip. In the slow-motion replay, you can see that Knauss just outdistances the whip strike, then reverses direction and charges in the split second the whip tip goes past him. I haven't worked against a bullwhip, but I have practiced the same manuever against other weapons. Knauss's timing is about 20 times better than mine would be.

Other technical factors include how to generate the maximum power from the stick and how to avoid getting hit yourself while committing to a strike. If you don't know how they're accomplishing those things, it's hard to know what to look for, especially in a full speed sparring match.

About 20 years ago, I saw some full speed escrima sparring, and had a similar reaction - "where's the technique?" It was at a Dan Inosanto seminar, and what they displayed didn't match the "zone out at an angle, check the hand, apply multiple strikes and a disarm" techniques that guru Dan was teaching. Many years of experience later, including simulated sword fighting in the SCA, and various non-weaponed full-contact training, I came across the Dog Brothers videos and was able to better appreciate what they were teaching. I haven't seen their second tape series, but the original set does a great job of explaining a concept, then showing you fights which demonstrate the concept in action.

[Tony Dismukes]

I believe someone with as little as 2 years with a knife could win over someone with 10 years empty hand from the same system, that's way out of balance.

That's just the reality of a knife, in any system. If you have two people fighting, but one has the destructive capability of their strikes multiplied by 20 times, that's going to outweigh a lot of years of training. I've got over 20 years of martial arts experience, in various systems. Fighting unarmed against a knife is one of the last things I want to do, even against an untrained opponent. Fighting someone who has 2 years of good training in how to use that knife, and I'll count myself really lucky to get out alive. (Yes, I do have methods for handling the situation, no, I don't ever want to have to test them out in a non-dojo setting.)

[jwinch2]

The technique is definitely there, but it's hard to see if you don't know what to look for.

That's kind of what I figured. I guess it was just different that what I had seen in videos or pictured through descriptions.

Could that also be due to the fact that they have stripped things down from classic escrima? Maybe the angular movement and "flow" was part of what they decided was unnecessary...

Just a thought...

[Tony Dismukes]

jwinch2 - The Dog Brothers footwork tape does include drills on angular footwork. You can tell by the footage of the drills that they're very good at it. I think what happens in a fight with a skilled apponent is that neither fighter wants the other to get a positional advantage. Therefore when one fighter moves off at an angle, the other adjusts to follow him. As a result, the angles appear and disappear in a split second. Also, frequently the attack is fast and unpredictable enough that the easiest reaction is a move straight back or forward. The footwork tape does show examples of fights where one or both fighters use angular movement, but it doesn't look like the techniques we drilled at the seminar, where one person angle out at 45 degrees, and the other person just stands in range at his original orientation.

[American HKD]

That's just the reality of a knife, in any system. If you have two people fighting, but one has the destructive capability of their strikes multiplied by 20 times, that's going to outweigh a lot of years of training. I've got over 20 years of martial arts experience, in various systems. Fighting unarmed against a knife is one of the last things I want to do, even against an untrained opponent. Fighting someone who has 2 years of good training in how to use that knife, and I'll count myself really lucky to get out alive. (Yes, I do have methods for handling the situation, no, I don't ever want to have to test them out in a non-dojo setting.)

Knife defense is real crazy stuff almost impossible to deal with unless you have a bigger weapon.

[Erik]

Competition (sport or real life) don't resemble MA a whole lot unless you know what to look for.

I'm with the poster above who mentioned that a clinch just looks like two guys pushing each other around unless you know what to look for.

[Tony Dismukes]

Stuart, I think I must have misunderstood your original comment. When you said...

One reason I quit trainning in Kali is because I felt that we could never achieve the desired results. The defensive capability isn't even close to offensive capability of the system from my expirience.

I believe someone with as little as 2 years with a knife could win over someone with 10 years empty hand from the same system, that's way out of balance.

...it sounded like you meant that in some other system besides Kali, an unarmed person with 10 years experience should be able to defeat a knife fighter with only 2 years experience. However, your next comment ...

Knife defense is real crazy stuff almost impossible to deal with unless you have a bigger weapon.

...seems more in line with my own viewpoint. What exactly do you mean by "the desired results" and "out of balance"?

[Tony Dismukes]

Competition (sport or real life) don't resemble MA a whole lot unless you know what to look for.

I think one reason for this is that much of any competition is taken up with each fighter trying to keep the other from being in a position to sucessfully attempt an effective technique. Strikers (or stickfighters) may try to stay too far away or too close for the opponent to swing effectively. They'll also break up the rhythm of their attack to keep the opponent from working a clean defense. Grapplers will fight to control the grip and/or the balance to limit an opponents attack and defense.

In contrast, in the dojo techniques are often demonstrated as they might look once you have your correct range/timing/grip/balance/whatever. Choreographed demonstrations or film fight scenes always do this, because it looks cooler. If that's what you're used to seeing, it's going to be hard to interpret the flow of a more competitive match.

[jwinch2]

I believe someone with as little as 2 years with a knife could win over someone with 10 years empty hand from the same system, that's way out of balance.

Any Thoughts?

I found this to be an intersting statement which led me to a follow-on question.

How effective do you guys feel Kali/Arnis/Escrima's empty hand techniques are with all of the focus that is placed on the weapons training?

As I have stated earlier, I have virtually no exposure to the Fillipino arts but from what I have been told and read, the empty hand techniqes are supposed to be based on the weapons sets.

Just curious I guess!

Thanks!

[beungood]

Stuart,

Where did you train in Pekiti Tirsia? How long did you trainin it and what types of training did you do? I sat=y this because I came from a Hapkido background and having been in Pekiti-Tirsia for a while now see the genius and simplicity of the system. It has been changed and the progression of material taught is different. The footwork alone has sharpened up my Hapkido. I think there is a big differance in the instructor back ground and what you learn. My Intstructor trained exclusivley with private lessons in PKT and has a combative background in other FMA and I think it makes a big differance. The drills are only there for you to burn into your memory and then forget. Where are you ,I can find you a PKT guy who will make the differance for you.,

JAck

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

Alot of interesting viewpoints from everyone,

1) Anyone with a blade has a distinct advantage on an empty hand defender. There is no question about that, especially since many systems do not work on effective techniques to survive that type of an attack. Training in the FMA's will give you options not commonly seen within other arts. In Sayoc Kali or other blade based FMA's a practitioner is put right into the heart of many different scenarios dealing with a blade attack at close range, aspects that will also include medical management and wound care, legalities, grappling scenarios, disadvantaged positions, weapon deployment, holstering, various blade type dynamics, again that is not the main point in an empty hand based system.

2) Sparring, anyone who watches almost any type of strike based sparring will see things that look like flailing away, especially when the heat is turned on to the practitioners. Most of what they learned in a traditional art goes out the window! A common misconception about sparring is that is real. Yet, it is only a game, one with many benefits to prepare someone for a real life encounter, but when two practitioners square off it is usually a "tit for tat" deal where one strikes the other and then he hits back...

3) Complexity/Simplicity - Remember back to when you first started in any art, what seemed so complex at your level quickly becomes Simple when you are more experienced and can see how it integrates into the system you are practicing. In FFS (Floro Fighting System), the overall system is very simple, but only when you see two advanced people practicing or how Raymond feints and baits you do you realize how complex and subtle many aspects really are.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net