Koryu JJ is ineffective and gentle???

[nicojo]

Mr. Delaney, Russ,

I really like your interpretation of koryu JJ being gentle/yawara for the practitioner and not so much for the victim. It helps quite a bit! This has been one of those "lost-in-translation" things for me.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Now that is a lovely way to put things, Steve. I wonder how anyone can even think of the word gentle in this context.
-R

Well as a lot of us know, there is more than one meaning to the Kanji for Yawarakai （柔かい）. Supple, flexible and soft are other meanings for yawarakai. I think it's best left open to interpretation.

My personal interpretation is flexible art. You have to have to be flexible to practice the art, learn the principles and adapt them. It can also refer to having a flexible mind in alertness, which can adapt to different situations that arise, just like the situations that you are put in when training in certain different kata, so you don't get that "deer caught in oncoming headlights" look and freeze when something unexpected happens. But that's just my take on it.

[Lee82mark4]

My personal interpretation is flexible art. You have to have to be flexible to practice the art, learn the principles and adapt them.

I would add "yielding" as a decent adaption or translation. I think the word "flexible" reflects an eventual, wide knowledge of technique and when to use them, but "gentle" is just fine when used in the right context. There are many less than appropriate translations of things budo, such as "Martial arts," but the main complaint I hear is about those who refer to themselves as "martial artist," a bad term according to many for something at which you train for a lifetime.

There are many people who train in what may be "out of touch" if the sole idea is self-defense and/or killing. Most of koryu contains a majority of waza with a katana, some freely admitting it is worth keeping around for what it was, nearly all with a jujutsu syllabus either not taught or practiced much anymore, but is usually known by its masters. TSKSR is a good example.

Just to add to Robert's ID of Chris from E-budo, I know him well, generally from the Koryu general forum and jujutsu. He just had a "moment" something I am well known for taking out on lurkers.

For anyone who thinks jujutsu is a gentle non-violent art, I invite them to take a good look at the bruises on my arms, legs, and feet. Also, they are more than welcome to spend some time with me while I ice my wrists, elbows, and ankles after every class. They are also invited to follow me around the next day and listen as I try to pick things up and my arm almost gives out because my joints hurt so much. It is also a good time to watch me try to workout. Let's just say that Advil has become a very good friend of mine...

Gentle my a@s...

Perhaps you are not doing it correctly.

Also, watch your Advil (Ibuprofen) intake. Not only is it hard on the digestive tract, it is closely-related to Vioxx, Celebrex, and naproxen.

Joint problems at your age has a bleak future and drugs just are not enough. Let's see, Robert has a new hip and is ten years younger than I am. Rory Miller has blown out his knee and is, I think, about thirty-nine (he did this in 2001 or 2002), and I am looking at shoulder and elbow surgery soon (my knees are still good for an old judo player, however).

Mark

[tsurashi]

Ryuha like Takenouchi-ryu, Araki-ryu & Sosuishi-ryu after taking down an enemy make use of short bladed weapons to slash arteries in order to finish the aggressor. Almost predatory in nature.
Gentle? You be the judge.

Q; How do you escape a BJJ rear naked choke??

A: Stab him in the leg.

[KIT]

LOL -

IF you don't go out before you can even get to your knife. IF you can get to the knife at all because his legs are wrapped around your hips. IF he doesn't happen to see you going for your knife and trap your knife hand. And IF you have practiced getting to your knife while the guy on your back is actually doing his utmost to put you out...

Let's skip the simplistic "XYZ beats BJJ" stuff, shall we? One nice thing about this forum is that it is wonderfully free of the insecure style-bashing found on so many other forums.



Now, to get back on track, I am with Steve and his interpretation. I see it much more as flexibility/pliancy. I always liked Draeger's take:

"...Inasmuch as the emphasis on realism in combat dominated the teachings of most ryu, it is also quite clear that the principle of ju, which underlies the operation of many of these "empty-hand" methods, likewise contained a practical bias.

The principle of ju underlies all classical bujutsu methods, and was adopted by the developers of the budo disciplines. Acting according to the principle of ju the classical warrior could intercept and mementarily control his enemy's blade when attacked, then, in a flash, could counterattack with a force powerful enough to cleave armor and kill the foe. The same principle of ju permitted an unarmed exponent to unbalance and hurl his foe to the ground.

Terms like "jujutsu" and "yawara" made the principle of ju the all-pervading one in methods catalogued under these terms. That principle was rooted in the concept of pliancy or flexibility, as understood in both a mental an a physical context. To apply the principle of ju, the exponent had to be both mentally and physically capable of adapting himself to whatever situation his adversary might impose on him."

- Classical Budo, p. 121.

[DuckofDeath]

Could the gentle art have been given that name in a tongue-in-cheek fashion?

[Mekugi]

It sure seems like it. I believe it was a translation thing within the context of the word and use. For example, when you get down to it yasashii ( 優しい ) is gentle also, but more like nice, kind, polite, etc. Yawara　or "ju-" 柔 on the other hand, levitates towards a soft, pliable, flexible description of things. Like Steve said, it could be a mindset or ideal. A strategy (pull/push/turn for instance) with a poetic personafication, reflecting a litererary concept rather than a down and dirty/ spitting out your teeth description.

Could the gentle art have been given that name in a tongue-in-cheek fashion?

[Rasputin]

I have always thought of "ju" as relating to the practitioner's attitude towards the attacker's energy. A jujutsuka does not stand as a mighty oak before the hurricane, he yields to the energy of the winds, allowing them to pass by him.

Many ostensibly "hard style" practitioners will stand firm before an attacker and meet force with greater force. This runs counter to "ju".

Flexible, as a reed.

Yielding, as kelp before the tides.

Gentle, as in quicksand, which gently envelops and entraps without any force.

[Dan Harden]

Hi Chris and Steve

Chris, you a troll? That’s a laugh. Well..... maybe the way you look....cough

The entire take on Koryu jujutsu is from whom about what. I would venture to guess that if you asked for specifics most people simply don't know why they have the opinion other than they heard it some where. Stop and think Chris...just how many have experience with it?
I tend to dismiss the "opinions" altogether. First from asking certain questions, then I get them to change ther minds after playing together for a while.
Jujutsu and new arts
The entire notion of Ju with these new ring arts reminds me of the "bad" judo (there is good judo still out there to be had) practitioners-all muscle. And while they talk of "street effectiveness" all the day long- they dismiss the parent arts that have weapon based finishes, seizing techniques, deception strategies, breath and body control to de-escalate a situation until you are ready to strike, neck cranks, foot stomping, face stomping, myriad chokes, throws that are very difficult to take ukemi from, carotid strikes that black out people while standing, significant head and neck controls (so goes the head -so goes the body) and some of the best kicks and punching techniques I've seen; particularly soft punches and controlling kicks. For those that like anecdotal experiences, I’ve knocked out jujutsuka on the ground, with a punch from about 5”…. to the right place, with the correct movement. From the experiences I have had with this new breed of jujutsu player I see and feel all muscle with nary a relaxed player anywhere. They are most assuredly missing out on skill sets they could truly make good use of were they to bother to take the time to learn them.
ANd the new craze of freestyle is mising out on some fundemental truths about the street fight they extoll. Fighter-to-fighter ring style training- is an exercise that grows increasingly narrow and artificial as it “evolves.” All while the inexperienced kids who “view it and do it” claim its superiority. There is oh so much more to training then spending all your time training freestlye with another fighter. Freetyle Which I still do every week has serious weaknesses and is quite artifially morphing, in and of itself.
Training is training. And there are many ways to train for different things
fight'n is fight'n and you absolutely need to do it as well.
I hope people do not bother to train to understand the deeper aspects that are avaliable. That they do not train to fight with a relaxed smothering feel, nor to absorb deflect and move one way while being pressed another, nor to capture the bag of sand feel in their bodies that can whip, nor to develop what feels like an iron bar -which is almost dead soft- response, nor to learn to NOT to BE thrown.

So, again Chris....the criticisms are- from whom, about what? Let them think we cannot "roll and bang." The more convinced in a vaccum they become- the happier I am.

And what's even funnier is to now hear the younger men slamming Judo- all the while extoling BJJ (which is a fine art). But I for one, cannot help but to sit hear laughin my butt off watching them all do Judo ne waza based techniques. And the ring craze crowd with their now famous "BJJ triangle choke"...invented by?
The Kodokan's "Judo Master"....Mifune.
Oh well.

Cheers
Dan

[Jeff C.]

Dan,

The first time I was choked out with sangaku jime (triangle strangle) was in 1979 - by a judo godan.

I think I am pretty lucky. The BJJ folks I have trained and hung out with are VERY respectful of judo. My BJJ instructor, Charles Dos Anjos (formerly a Barra Gracie instructor) holds dan rank in judo and karate (Shotokan) as well as BJJ. Many of the students, myself included, hold black belt rank in judo, as well as aikido, jujitsu, karate, TKD, etc. I have found this to be true at every BJJ school I am familiar with. Fortunately the only young BJJ guys I have encountered who say derogatory things about judo have ONLY been on the internet. I would guess that they are very low ranking, or not even training, in BJJ. I surely hope you don't think that is an unprofessional trend in the active BJJ world.

I will also loudly say again: judo and BJJ are the best things to have happened to each other!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[TonyU]

Jeff I agree with you.
While my experience in BJJ is limited as opposed to yourself, I find the same to be true. The BJJ guys I train with respect and cross triain in Judo.
Also, my BJJ sensei was originally a Judo practitioner and ranked before going into BJJ.

judo and BJJ are the best things to have happened to each other!

I know it's the best thing that's happened to me.

[Moon dog]

I think the Idea that the things Done in soft styles is ineffective comes from people that see a few beginner classes. The initial foot work that frequently must be taught to allow a person to use their center rather than say, thier shoulders seems by itself to be ineffective. Its not until a student learns to use this foot work with other technique that it becomes appearent how powerfull this footwork and gentle re-direction of Uki can be. Its hard to explain to someone inexperienced how by extending thier wrist or shoulder before applying a twisting motion amplifies the effectiveness. So they continue in their muscle intensive ways never knowing how easily and brutilly they might be overcome.

Today I routinely take in a few extra Judo classes after training the Jujtsu. It allows me to heal up a bit and still work on good body motion and balance issues as well as good tough grappling and submiision techniques. Simply stated the submission techniques though they can be painfull do not seem as intense of pain as finding yourself stuck on your toes in pain with no way to get away from the pain except maybe do a roll 5 Ft off the ground. which comes close to dislocation of the joint from the hold and means you hope for the best as you try to roll out from the fall.
I suppose part of this is that you are readilly able to tap out before bad injury with a submission hold. Where, when you get caught in forward attack motion and find yourself suspended in a painfull hold with Jujutsu your own body wieght and motion becomes a big problem even if your opponent stops. Gentle brutallity. You have to love it!!!