5 kata

[Gene Williams]

Chris, You seem to associate skill with popularity and a Hollywood career. You also seem to equate success with popularity. If you turn off the tv and find a quiet place and sit and think about that for a little while, you may begin to realize that you have a very shallow view of both skill and success.
I have several friends who are seniors in Demura's organization,I have trained with them often (faint, faint-one of them has even PAID me to do a seminar at his dojo), and have actually met, yes MET Fumio Demura! I have also spoken with him on the phone several times. Now, about the founder of Shito-ryu, Kenwa Mabubi. Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, the ryu in which I train, was named by Kosei Kuniba, a direct student of Mabuni and Motobu, and carried on by his son, Shogo Kuniba, under whom I trained many times and I actually SPOKE to him. So, Chris, learn to spell and punctuate, work on your sentence structure and grammar, stop drooling, and enjoy the farts.

[Gene Williams]

Could we get back to listing kata? And how 'bout just Okinawan/Japanese stylists who do the traditional kata instead of dilettantes and jugheads who just know the names of the kata, hmmmmm?

[CEB]

Ah! Seisan. Good choice. Seisan bunkai like a friggin’ cat fight! To me this kata most typifies the Goju method. Very advanced form. Striped down it appears to a basic form but with all the after market add-ons it becomes very involved. I teach it incrementally starting off with the basic shell form. Green belts could learn this form. Then you add-on the more involved techniques. That is the way I was taught it so that is the way I teach it. It is just easier to do it that way. Like when you are facing the rear and doing the turn to right I simply teach turn strike. Once the student learns the pattern then you start adding in the trapping and tearing stuff. This is supposed to be the next to last kata for us. I think once you are 3rd dan or so you should start learning all the kata patterns. Else you will be too old to do the damn jump kick in Pechurin when it is time to know it.

I was with Sensei one summer with some of other Yudansha from other dojos. We were working Seisan. The other guys were doing a different rendering of the ending right before the final mae geri. I was doing a hidari kake uke followed quickly by a migi kake uke. The other guys were doing hidari kake uke with right palm stopping in front of the solar plexus. One guy asks ‘Sensei are you supposed to do 1 or 2 kake uke’. Sensei said “Yes!” Other guy asks “But Shihan, which one do you want?” Sensei says depends on if the guy punches once or twice. Techniques inside of techniques that is Seisan.

The 3 punches from Shiko Dachi are interesting. Basic interpretation punches are thrown to each level Jo, Chu and Ge. The advanced version ( and for good reason) is 3 Chudan punches. But that might be secret stuff.

The beauty of orthodox arts from Okinawa is that they are of a nature that is similar to a Japanese Sogo Budo or an old Chinese system. They are striking arts. They are grappling arts. They are weapons arts. They are relatively complete systems. When orthodox practitioners hear people start talking about mixing and fusing this and that in order fill gaps that should not need to be filled, at least from their perspective they will naturally think those are eclectic martial artists. That is not a bad thing but, it is not a traditional Ryuha either. It is like they are judging traditional ryuha based on incomplete assessments of their nature.

I guess it is all good though.

PS: Shihan Gene Williams is a lot of things but insecure is not one of them.

[Gene Williams]

Ed, Good post...ten years ago I may not have included Seisan in my list, although I have always loved the kata. I probably would have listed Seiuchin in its place. But, over time, Seisan has just pulled me ahead of myself, allowed me to catch up, then pulled me ahead some more. Kuniba used to do the kata with two different methods of breathing, first with the deeper breathing that people usually associate with Goju (although I've seen Higaonna do it very quietly), and then with very light breathing but with the same dynamic tension. I tend toward deeper breathing on the early sanchin dachi, then quicker lighter breaths on the way back down the floor. All of our punches are chudan except the very last one, which is gedan. When I have a cold or am feeling crummy, I do Seisan a bunch of times.

[TonyU]

Let's not turn another good thread into personal attacks. I would hate to have to close this thread.

If another stylist wants to pratice and train in "our" katas, so be it. How's the saying goes, "Imitation is a form of flattery".
So let's keep the subject on point.

Now for my choices. The reason I picked the katas I did is because I feel they each have invaluable bunkai and build upon each other. I also feel that the primary (sho) katas gives you the foundation and bunkais while the secondary katas (dai) gives an alternative bunkai. Remember that when a Ryuha has katas delineated by sho and dai it's really two versions of the same kata that the masters learned along the way and added them to the system.

[Gene Williams]

Tony, Do you do the Kyan version of Chinto? I have always thought that most Shorin ryu did the Kyan version, and it is the one we do, as well.

[Gene Williams]

Hey Ed, I just checked out your public profile...cute...I ride bicycles, too. Just rode 20 miles Sunday in a big state park here. I ride a Specialized Hybrid so I can use trails and the road. I love to run, but sometimes that is hard on the knees after long distances plus doing kata and fundamentals several days a week.

[TonyU]

Tony, Do you do the Kyan version of Chinto? I have always thought that most Shorin ryu did the Kyan version, and it is the one we do, as well.

Itosu's version.

[Gene Williams]

Interesting. The Nagamine folks do the Kyan version. I used to do both, but decided to make a choice and let the Itosu version go. I have students who prefer the Itosu version and still do it. Now they hassle me because I won't run it But, I haven't taught any of them Unshu or Suparimpei, so they can just moan and groan. You ought to hear them dropping hints...dogs!

[CEB]

I ride a Trek road bike mostly. Specialized makes a good bike. I probably would have gotten a Specialized Roubaix if the shop I like to deal with were still a Specialized dealer. I also have a Gary Fischer Mountain bike that isn’t getting much use this year. I have a hybrid with panniers I use for commuting to work when there is no chance of rain. You just had one of America’s premiere racing events down your way. The Tour of Georgia ended yesterday. Lance came in third this year. He won it last year. He announced he was going to retire after this year’s Tour de France. He is not looking so good this year. He withdrew from Paris-Nice earlier this year. I also have an old Windsor steel frame that is taking up space in my garage. Then there are the wife’s and kid’s bikes. The car sits outside because the garage is full of bikes. That OK I guess because that carbon fiber road bike is probably worth more than the 97 Taurus anyway.

You better teach your men Suparimpei or your guys before they are too old to do the spinning mikzuki geri/mae tobi geri.

[Gene Williams]

RE: Suparimpei turn mikazuki/tobi geri and my seniors...

If you have a carbon fiber road bike you are into some serious biking. I only do 50-75 miles a week.

[Gene Williams]

When I think of listing these 5 kata, I am not necessarily thinking of our favorites, rather those we consider essential to our training and that contain the important techniques and fundamentals of the ryu.

[jabonn]

That is how I understood the directions Gene and elected to only list the Big 3 Original Uechi Kata.

[Gene Williams]

I know that Uechi-ryu use about 8 kata that are somewhat different from the general group of Naha, Shuri, and Tomari kata. I have a tape of an Uechi-ryu senior performing kata and it is really nicely done...very crisp, some interesting footwork that I don't completely understand, and lots of power. Does it derive from one of the old family ryu on Okinawa?

[TonyU]

When I think of listing these 5 kata, I am not necessarily thinking of our favorites, rather those we consider essential to our training and that contain the important techniques and fundamentals of the ryu.

Same here.
That's why I gave a more detailed explanation of my chosen five.
We practice 14 katas, recently adding a 15th. The 15th kata was put together by Nakazato sensei and is only, I believe, about 10 years old.

[Gene Williams]

I stick to what I was taught were the 26 kata that Mabuni originally taught, which he brought together from Shuri, Naha, and Tomari. Now, that is a lot of kata and there are only about 15 that I do every workout and about 5 more that I run a couple of times a week. The rest I do a few times a month. Shame on me.

[jabonn]

Gene,

Uechi Kanbun escaped the Japanese Military by moving to China for a period. As legend has it, he learned Chuan Fa from Chou Tzu Ho or Shushiwa somewhere in Southern China. While in China Kanbun only learned three kata: Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiryu. Rumor mill has it that Superempei (sp) is the lost fourth kata. I go with what I know and only perform the 3 Original and the 5 Supplementary kata.

Kanbun had a friend by the name of Gogenki (Japanse Spelling) while he studied in China. Some how Goju traces it's roots back to Gogenki.

[Gene Williams]

Jabonn, We do a couple of the Gokenki kata. They are the White Crane based kata. Your Sanchin is different from our's. I think your Seisan is, too. I really enjoy seeing all the different interpretations of the kata.

[TonyU]

Thus the thread is closed.

[Sochin]

One Shto Ryu grup I know call all the collections of kata, one kata. So the 5 Pinans are one kata, all the Naihanchis are another.

In this way, the list could be

Pinan

Naihanchi

Potsai

Kenku

and Wan

for 5 kata that include in it some 19 separate parts!