No HKD in MMA?

[Akuma]

I train primarily in TKD, but also some HKD, to a lesser degree. I think HKD is awesome, but was wondering why you never see those type of locks and manipulations in MMA settings? If they are truly combat effective, how come they haven't been utilized in the combat sport setting, like bjj has? This isn't a troll at all, I'm truly curious because it seems like a HKD practicioner would have entered the octagon by now. Peace.

[WhiteBeltJones]

I think that it is a similar reason for why you don't see much traditional Japanese Jujutsu. There's a difference between combat sports and arts that are designed to incapacitate/kill at all costs.

This is not to say that combat sports are useless or anything. Just that they lend themselves better to MMA sport applications.

Just as illustration, small joint locks, as used by JJ, HKD and Aikido are forbidden in most MMA competitions. There's just a lot of things that aren't competition safe.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Ok...........I am not a big buyer of the kill at all costs mentality. Plus the only small joint stuff that is illegal in MMA is finger and toe locks and that is because they break too easy without much result. People break fingers and toes all the time and keep on fighting.

Here is my take on this:

HKD alledgedly comes from Aikijutsu, which is a type of Japanese Jujutsu. This can apply to HKD, Aikijutsu, Aikido, and a host of other JJJ and Korean styles.

Aiki techiques came from, developed from, and were designed against weapons. Specifically swords but also other weapons. A great majority of the techniques involve defending against committed weapon attacks. Sure they are practiced in the dojo against punches too, but in my opinion that is just a wrong application. Westerners tend to punch like boxers with the quick withdrawal of the strike. You are just not going to get a kote gaeshi or shiho nage on a big, strong, sweaty, MMA guy that is trying to knock your teeth out. I read on a site before where a student asked a Japanese instructor how to deal with a boxer. The instructor said "I don't know, Samurai didn't box."

Now that being said, Aiki arts are not limited to only arm joint attacks and they contain many distance closing, off balancing, and throws like Judo. Those techniques have a better chance against non-weapon fighters.

It is not that there is anything "wrong" with the techniques we would associate with Aiki type arts, they were just designed for a completely different application. A hammer and a screwdriver are both good tools, just not interchangable.

If a good majority of people still carried swords every day, they Aiki arts would be much more popular.

[Rasputin]

You have much more practical experience than do I, Cliff, so I am not sure how much I can add by way of my own opinions.

With that disclaimer out of the way:

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

Aiki techiques came from, developed from, and were designed against weapons. Specifically swords but also other weapons. A great majority of the techniques involve defending against committed weapon attacks. Sure they are practiced in the dojo against punches too, but in my opinion that is just a wrong application. Westerners tend to punch like boxers with the quick withdrawal of the strike. You are just not going to get a kote gaeshi or shiho nage on a big, strong, sweaty, MMA guy that is trying to knock your teeth out. I read on a site before where a student asked a Japanese instructor how to deal with a boxer. The instructor said "I don't know, Samurai didn't box."

I have heard that some teachers/schools teach to go after the hand which is not jabbing.

I have also heard that a good swift irimi technique (irimi nage, o soto gari, etc.) works wonders against a boxer who is jabbing without committing. You mention this below.

Lastly, I have heard a rumor that boxers like to clinch if their opponent gets inside punching range. It seems to me that training good standing grappling techniques from the clinch might serve one in good stead.

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

Now that being said, Aiki arts are not limited to only arm joint attacks and they contain many distance closing, off balancing, and throws like Judo. Those techniques have a better chance against non-weapon fighters.

I agree, but I am not entirely willing to write off the effectiveness of kansetsu waza in real life situations, even against larger and stronger opponents. I believe you when you say that you have seen people continue to fight with broken fingers and/or wrists; perhaps doing so will slow them down enough to sink in a tasty choke?

[Michael Tomlinson]

Here is how I view it...as everyone has said Hapkido comes from JuJitsu and so does Brazillian "JuJitsu", so in theory they are practically the same. Every technique I have ever seen in MMA fighting I have also seen and trained in to some extent in Hapkido. All those techniques are in the curriculum that I have studied and teach.

IMHO here is the disconnect and BIG problem, it is not that the techniques are not there it is how they are taught. Most instructors do not teach their curriculum in the manner that would be advantageous to hardcore fighting, sad but true. So the training doesn't match the task at hand.

What I think can be learned from watching MMA's matches even if you aren't fantasizing about being the next Randy Couture is finding the common denominator human kinetics that are involved in fighting. Take those and train them hard. For instance, quick punches..jabs and crosses are always gonna be thrown. Train for them. People will eventually clinch. Train for that. Someone will try a takedown. Train for that. Someone will throw some very basic kicks, low level mostly but also higher roundhouse, side, and back kicks. Train for that. People will end up on the ground in basically six positions, guard, mount, side position, scarf hold, front overhooks, and half mount. Train for that. People will try to choke you. Train for that. I could go on for two more paragraphs but you all get the idea. So what you have with MMA's is a series of MMA's gyms who shave their training down to encompass only what is necessary in the ring and then they go hardcore sweat and blood while training to the max. This naturally produces the best "ring fighters". This can be done to a certain extent by any common sense street savvy Hapkido instructor. We do it! The one thing that is not in the MMA's rings is weapons. Unfortunately many people on the street have them and will try to use them. What are the most common? Knife, gun, and some form of club. So in "street self defense" you need to incorporate this into your training also. What else is in street self defense? The use of surprise and more than one attacker. You need to incorporate that also into your training. If you can cover these aspects through constant movement drills and quick technique application then you are gonna be pretty good...good enough to beat Randy Couture? Nope but good enough to handle yourself most of the time. The proof is not in the pudding but in the menu!!! Train for what you need.

I personally don't buy into all the aiki mysticism, good leverage and knowledge of what you are doing creates the results you want and I believe when people try to push that aiki stuff too much it is usually in context of the guru-student movie syndrome. I'm of the opinion of don't tell me how mystical this stuff is, teach me and show me how it works and then the rest of the stuff falls into place. Most everyone I have ever met that talks a ton about aiki and chi and ki don't know squat about what it is. Talk to Ji Han Jae sometime about it. He will put it into laymens terms for you. I also don't buy into the hoopla as "this stuff is too lethal life and death so it can't be used in the MMA venues". IMHO most of the people who use this argument have never ever been in a real fight in middle school much less anything above that level. IF you watch the MMA fights not as a drunken nacho eating wannabee but as an unbiased open minded analyst doing some research for yourself you will notice some very interesting patterns develop during ALL those fights. Try sometime to watch those fights with a notebook and challenge yourself to find the ten most common denominator techniques you see, then also find the six to eight most common denominator ways people move....the stuff IMHO is great for all martial artists to learn from. It is like a big visual labratory for serious students of martial arts to watch and analyze.
Michael Tomlinson

[jwinch2]

Excellent post Michael. Great information as always!

[Mixmastersenior]

I agree. Brilliant post,you hit the nail right on the Head!

[Gae-Bek]

it is not that the techniques are not there it is how they are taught.

DING-DING-DING-DING!

That's the biggest part right there. Actually, that's something that could be said as an argument for the validity of traditional arts...they're good if they're taught correctly.

Recently, I've been regularly training some MMA with a couple of Kenpo Karate (albeit *not* HKD) guys who are big into joint manipulation. I allow them to use whatever they want, even though it's usually not in the rules. I quickly learned that I need to protect my hands better.

The problem though, is when those guys get tired or in a bad spot, they'll [fall back to what they know and] go for a joint attack that they don't have the leverage to finish. More than a few times, they've tried to submit me with a wristlock from inside my guard or from (*gasp*) bottom-mount. From mount, it's an easy escape, that usually ends in them submitting. From guard, with both of his hands trying to manipulate one of mine, it's an easy task to slide a knee in, push away to create space, and sweep to mount.

Anyway, if small joint manipulation was allowed in MMA, and you first put yourself in a position of leverage, then I'd bet it could be quite useful.

[Andrew Green]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Lastly, I have heard a rumor that boxers like to clinch if their opponent gets inside punching range. It seems to me that training good standing grappling techniques from the clinch might serve one in good stead.

Partly, Boxers clinch when they are getting hit in close as a way to shut the strikes down and get seperated. So first you got to get the upper hand in the boxing, get in tight and start landing before they will do this. A boxer that is dominating at the time would have no motivation to force a clinch, which is kind of like a way to reset position.

Back to the question:

Some things just don't work in a ring, or rather against an opponent that is as skilled as you. You're simply not going to pull of those type of locks against a trained athlete that is fighting back.

Doesn't mean they are without uses, different tools come in for different jobs. But if your goal is competitive fighting at a high level "classical" grappling is not the path to be on.

[Michael Tomlinson]

thanks guys for the good words..now we are talking about some good stuff...and not mine is bigger than yours junk...actually mine is not that big...but very very wide

IMHO the biggest problem with getting joint locks on people in real hardcore scenarios is that a lot of people try to do them when they are too far out of the opponents centerline...in other words when you try a joint lock on someone with your upper arms extended out too far from your body then you create a tug of war scenario....how many times have you seen a Hapkido or Jujitsu demo when guys are throwing people with joint locks and their entire arm stucture is way out away from their own ribcage..heck I've done a bunch of demo's like that in the past...bottom line IMO is that these joint locks just plain won't work in real scenarios...joint locks like kotogaeshi or what we call an outward wrist break...to make them work you have to be in close with your opponent where your leverage and control of his body dictates the situation...you ever notice in MMA's fights the joint locks that DO work...such as a Kimura..which we call an inside elbow break...works because the guy doing the inside elbow break is in so close to the opponent that he is controlling his opponents body at the same time...same with arm bars...same with any other joint lock you see in MMA..they work...but never in a tug of war position.. where your upper tricep area is extended out away from your armpits and your holding on to your opponents wrist, arm, elbow, etc. from this position...next time you get a chance to JUST see joint locks and arm bars and chokes end the fights in MMA's competitions rewind the tevo or dvd and notice the body positions...you will see that they ONLY work when you are in so close that part of your body is controlling or pressing part of the opponents body....the famous pride fight where the japanese dude breaks Gracie's arm...it starts with Gracie trying a classic wrestling rear takedown, actually not that good of a rear takedown...the japanese guy..sakaraba or subaru or something like that drops his weight from a standing positon..then controls gracies wrists as he is pressing his upper arms into gracies arms thus controlling his body..then he posts around and takes him down and controls him with what we call a chicken wing with shoulder seperation....very good technique...BUT it happened in close...very close...that technique is on about blue belt level in the old KHA curriculum...it works good...

I think IMO the probem lies in a lot of people not wanting to get in close...I call it entering the blender...let's face it...once you bridge that distance between kicking range into the area where you can get punched and elbowed...that is some shakey and serious area...we do drills to lets us get there and press against the opponents body...BUT...to enter that area when someone is trying to knock on your skull with some real stuff ain't no joke and IF you don't drill for it you are gonna hesitate and then get stoned....ever notice the first and second season fights of that show...ultimate fighter...the fights where there was hardly any action...and even in some UFC stuff where the ref says "let's see some action"...the announcer says they are "feeling eat other out"....welp that is what I call getting ready to enter the blender...every human knows instinctually that getting into that range of distance means you are very vulnerable to take some shots....so the brain doesn't want you to go in there...that is why you see those boring rounds and fights where no one gets quite close enough to stir things up...dudes it a natural human survival response not to stick you body in the blender....BUT...the good fighters that have trained enough to get in that area are pretty awesome... if you want to do joint locks you will have to get into the blender...just don't become puree in the process....
Michael Tomlinson

[siouxnyc]

repeat after me: position, isolation, submission. position, isolation, submission. first you secure the POSITION, then you ISOLATE the joint (or neck for a choke), then you execute the SUBMISSION. position, isolation, submission. it's the basic tenet of high-level submission grappling, and what seperates the Abu Dhabi world champs from the wrist-grabbers. (please note: wristlock submissions are not uncommon in BJJ competitions. they're just well set up.)

and small joint manipulation (ie, finger and toe locks) was banned from MMA competition not because it was too dangerous or too effective, but as a concession to the athletic commissions. pressure point attacks were banned for this very reason as well. (source: UFC head referee Big John McCarthy)

cliff is correct about people breaking their fingers and toes all the time and still fighting. marco ruas went into UFC 7 with a broken finger and won the 8-man tournament.

[AndrewSimonsen]

There are a few HKD fighters in Pride and some of the other smaller MMA leagues in Asia. One reason that we see few HKD in the UFC is that it has had very limited exposure in the states.

[James O'Neill]

This turned out to be a great thread so far IMO

As for small joint breaks like fingers & toes, I've seen some people sustain far more serious injuries during Dan rank tests & keep going like it never even happened. So while they might be decent techniques for restraining a semi-compliant nogoodnick, finger & toe breaks are pretty much irrelevant versus a determined opponent.

...Actually, most of us on here probably saw Frank Mir break Tim Silvia's arm in 3 places during their title UFC fight a couple years ago - they stopped that fight - Tim was still able to continue He acted like it didn't even happen (that is downright scary!!!).

So what Mst. T said.

And what siouxnyc said too - wristlocks work just fine; you have to be in control of the other person though. Only an novice grappler would try them from a position without leverage such as while mounted ( ) - but that same "come along" (aka; "gooseneck") is a viable submission if performed from within your guard though. ...Or while working the Omaplatta on a big sumo dude for that matter

[Cliff Hargrave]

I think the days of labeling someone's style in MMA are over. Lot's of fighter's start out as wrestlers, kickboxers, BJJ, etc., but it has really evolved into an art of it's own. Even if a HKD guy fought in MMA, I doubt you would see any specific technique that you could label as HKD.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Good stuff here yes, but we may be missing that HKD is taught as a pure self-defense system.

What the MMA do are isolate many moves (like we have in HKD as Mike T. said) and train them for the specific one on one sport arena matches not unlike what Kano did with transitioning Jujutsu to Judo.

HKD is not geared or taught for the same purposes as UFC fighters so we don't get the same results.

I do think anyone who wanted to train in HKD the same way UFC competetors train we would see the same results with no problem at all, all the tools ar there and them some.

[American HKD]

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

Even if a HKD guy fought in MMA, I doubt you would see any specific technique that you could label as HKD.

Yes I agree

[AndrewSimonsen]

Originally Posted by American HKD

Greetings,

Good stuff here yes, but we may be missing that HKD is taught as a pure self-defense system.

What the MMA do are isolate many moves (like we have in HKD as Mike T. said) and train them for the specific one on one sport arena matches not unlike what Kano did with transitioning Jujutsu to Judo.

HKD is not geared or taught for the same purposes as UFC fighters so we don't get the same results.

I do think anyone who wanted to train in HKD the same way UFC competetors train we would see the same results with no problem at all, all the tools ar there and them some.

While that may be true for your kwan or school, it might not be true for all hapkido.

[American HKD]

Originally Posted by AndrewSimonsen

While that may be true for your kwan or school, it might not be true for all hapkido.

Greetings,

Young man I was speaking in generalizations not my school or your school but by in large it's true for all schools. Tell me what you're Hapkido school does?

The HKD schools that train for MMA competitions would be so small something like a fraction of one percent.

HKD is indeed designed to be a Self Defense system or counter offensive system.

I will defer to other HKD Instr here to comment on this.

[James O'Neill]

There is a difference between "self defense" and "fighting" - ideally Hapkido training will teach the student both. So IMO realistic scenario drills (to develope a good reflex & a deep step) and resistence training are both essential. Training with resistence teaches us what to do when everything else goes wrong. And there are things about timing & balance that one can only truly understand by training with a non-compliant partner...

One thing I have to say about Hapkido is that our style seems to exemplify the Water principal. IOW, Hapkido is like a living thing - constantly changing & adapting itself to new circumstances. Adaptability. That what will keep it alive for generations to come

[Michael Tomlinson]

True that ya'll....on the matter of not being able to label something as Hapkido...well yes and no....

like I said before..I haven't seen one technique in the MMA's fights that I haven't seen in the old KHA curriculum...so in concept I could say that I could actually label everything in MMA's as Hapkido...BUT...I'm pretty sure that a good japanese jujitsu school could also do the same thing...and a good Judo school could do the same thing...and a good BJJ school could do the same thing....

Basically no one style owns these techniques,,,BUT some styles have the techniques in their curriculum and some don't....I personally don't view MMA as any "new" system...I just see it as a way for some people to train now in a manner that they weren't privy to in the past for whatever reason...I don't have any problem personally with MMA...I think it is a cool exstension of what is already out there....and the ONE thing I like about it is that those guys training in it CALL it MMA....that is being honest...and I'm into that...not renaming an existing Martial Art and then promoting yourself to 9th dan pooopah....as many many others have done....one other thing about "most" MMA that I like is that they put their training on the front burner and turn the heat up to high....get some good cooking that way brothers....
Michael Tomlinson