Chin Na vs. ...

[Oniw17]

Can Chin Na taught in CMA be effective against grappling styles such as Judo, BJJ, et cetera? If not, why? If so, then there's still the eternal question of why there aren't many TMA people as MMA fighters..?

[Musubi Dojo]

TMA vs MMA has been done to death Frank.

Chi na, is only effective as the person using it.
Same goes for judo, BJJ, karate, TKD, Hapkido etc....

[sean_stonehart]

Good answer Chris!!

[Oniw17]

I wasn't trying to spark a TMA-MMA argument, I meant does Chin Na have the ground game to take a BJJ or Judo guy on the ground. For example, in this video(http://youtube.com/watch?v=8IQ6Adwhv5k), I don't see any ground work, just takedowns.

[Musubi Dojo]

Originally Posted by Oniw17

I wasn't trying to spark a TMA-MMA argument, I meant does Chin Na have the ground game to take a BJJ or Judo guy on the ground. For example, in this video(http://youtube.com/watch?v=8IQ6Adwhv5k), I don't see any ground work, just takedowns.

Oh, ok.

The Chi Na I've seen is all standing, but it's not my area of expertise. Sean can probably help you there.

Cheers
c

[sean_stonehart]

Most qinna (to catch and hold or to seize and control) isn't designed as ground game. It's designed to lock somebody or destroy a joint, muscle, tendon and put them on the ground to be finished.

Kung Fu has 4 main principles:

• Ti - Kick
• Da - Punch
• Shuai - Throw
• Na - Lock

Qin Na is a part of that. Eagle Claw (Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai) has an 18 piece poem to lay out the use of qin na.

• Dian - To strike precise pressure points or accupoints
• Na - To seize joints, tendons and points
• Suo - To lock the throat, joints and legs
• Kuo - To hook the elbow or leg
• Ban - To move the opponent
• Chan - To wrap like a vine attacking the wrist or ankles
• Qie - To strike with a sawing or slicing motion
• Ya - To press the leg and elbow
• Sui - To throw the opponent
• Chin - To catch the head, arms or legs
• Zhua - To attack with claw
• Ba - To pull the limbs
• Ning - To pinch the arm or wrist
• Feng - To block the throat or legs
• Bi - To stop breathing or shut down the throat
• Die - To make the opponent fall
• Lan - To ward off
• Diao - To be able to reverse a grip

This info is courtesy of Grandmaster Lily Lau's website at www.lilylaueagleclaw.com.

So no, qin na isn't a ground game type of technique. You use qin na in conjunction with striking, kicking, throwing, etc... to put somebody on the ground with the idea of finishing, not pinning or working on the ground. On the way down, you also inflict the maximum amount of damage to a joint, muscle or tendon so if you choose to not finish them, they're short an operating limb or joint.

[ling hou]

Sean, great post, but I would like to interject that many of the Qin Na techniques that are taught in many schools are highly advanced techniques that require fine motor skills to make them effective. We know that when someone is in a stressful environment gross motor skills take over. So, as many of the MMA guys work those gross motor skills with a resisting opponent, many of the traditional guys are working fine motor skills that work mainly in a classroom setting.

[sean_stonehart]

kurt... great addendum!

[Dale Lackey]

Originally Posted by ling hou

Sean, great post, but I would like to interject that many of the Qin Na techniques that are taught in many schools are highly advanced techniques that require fine motor skills to make them effective. We know that when someone is in a stressful environment gross motor skills take over. So, as many of the MMA guys work those gross motor skills with a resisting opponent, many of the traditional guys are working fine motor skills that work mainly in a classroom setting.

I'll take that to mean that noone as yet have used such skills in a mma atmosphere, not that it can't be. The argument is old, but a persistant one.

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by ling hou

We know that when someone is in a stressful environment gross motor skills take over.

It is possible to maintain fine motor control during any type of stressful enviornment provided it is trained for when learning and perfecting the skill. Take for example athletes who have their biggest performance on the biggest stage. How's Tiger's game in the US Open or The Master's been in recent years? Did Jordan ever make any clutch shots in the NBA Finals? How did Montana do in those Superbowl games he went to? Pretty good last time I checked.

Those are all anecdotal examples, however in the motor learning literature there are hundreds of examples of studies supporing this concept. They refer to it as "state of arousal" and suggest that if you are significantly more or less aroused when you have to perform than you were when you learned a task then your performance will suffer for it.

In sports they call it, "mimicing in game conditions", in MMA, "training versus a resisting opponant", in science, "state of arousal", in the military we called it "train like you fight"... You can look at it however you like, it comes down to the same thing.

The idea that BJJ is successful because it relies only on gross motor movements and that Chin Na's "advanced" techniques take years to be able to actually be able to use because they are more intracate is a falsehood. The difference is HOW the tasks are trained and that they are repeatedly and regularly tested in a stressful enviornment.

ANY task, regardless of its dependency on small motor units or gross movement, which is tested and trained in as close to the same manner in which it will be employed as possible will stand a much higher likelihood of actually working.

[Zen Rabbit]

I'm pretty sure standing joint-locks and breaks are against the rules in MMA tournaments. Of course, they aren't against the rules on the street, but it's really the responsibility of the martial artist to use discretion. Not every fight needs to end up with someone seriously hurt or dead.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally Posted by Zen Rabbit

I'm pretty sure standing joint-locks and breaks are against the rules in MMA tournaments. Of course, they aren't against the rules on the street, but it's really the responsibility of the martial artist to use discretion. Not every fight needs to end up with someone seriously hurt or dead.

Oh no, not again............

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by Zen Rabbit

I'm pretty sure standing joint-locks and breaks are against the rules in MMA tournaments. Of course, they aren't against the rules on the street, but it's really the responsibility of the martial artist to use discretion. Not every fight needs to end up with someone seriously hurt or dead.

Necormancer has a supernatural ability to bring long-dead forum discussion threads back to life. After having been flogged to death the thread may have been deceased for many years, and bringing it back may have scant relevance to the current topic, yet Necromancer will unexpectedly exhume the thread’s rotting corpse, and strike horror in the forum as its grotesque form lurches into the discussion. The monster, instantly recognized by all who knew it in life, seems at first to breathe and have a pulse, but, alas, it is beyond Necromancer’s skill to fully restore the thread’s original vitality. The hideous apparition may frighten away some of the weaker Warriors or Warriors badly wounded in former battles, but the thread is only a shadow of its former self and very quickly expires.

Unlike Archivist, Necromancer compulsively saves every forum message in carefully preserved archives for future use in battle, while Necromancer collects departed threads merely for the thrill of resurrecting them. Some say he performs this unnatural act out of malice, others say he can’t help himself, but no one really knows.

Don't be this guy... Plus, it's against the forum rules...

[Webmaster]

Originally Posted by Zen Rabbit

I'm pretty sure standing joint-locks and breaks are against the rules in MMA tournaments. Of course, they aren't against the rules on the street, but it's really the responsibility of the martial artist to use discretion. Not every fight needs to end up with someone seriously hurt or dead.

Don't mind these curmudgeons, you're just hitting on a topic that has been done to death. If you have something new to add, please feel free to do so.

[GodofGamblers]

I know this thread is a topic that's been done to death, but I think there's a lot of ground to cover. I have been doing kung fu for a few years now and I'm a big fan of the UFC, so I have my own PoV on this subject.

I was really turned on by Kung fu in the beginning because it was totally different from the sport karate that I took. In sport karate, we were taught blocks, drills and katas, but the class was 50% sparring (and it was the part everyone was really into). It was a bit strange because the first part had nothing to do with the second. You're taught static blocks but when you spar, generally you use movement to avoid, pull back, bob, or sidestep the strike. You don't do reverse punches and lunge punches but jabs.

Now in Kung fu we don't do sport sparring. We do mainly drills, one guy coming at you with straight punches, kicks or chops and the other having to block them with his arms. Having never had to actually block a punch or kick, it was a real education. I quickly learned to block sidekicks on the outside of the leg; I learned to block punches with the inside of my forearm (the muscle) and not the bone (unless you want to punish the other guy's arm: but that's another topic).

So it was a whole new skill set. (of course, in traditional karate you would learn all this, so i'm not denigrating karate in favor of kung fu).

I also learned Chin Na which is a series of locks and escapes.

But now we come to the UFC. Man, let me proclaim, first of all, my love for the UFC. When I first watched it it was like pornography. WHy? Because my friends and I had to pass around the cassettes secretly. People in Indonesia tend to think this stuff is weird, anti-social (pls see my thread on the failed Indo UFC for further info). To my friends, guys like Gracie, Severn and Taktarov were gods. They opened the door to MA and made it acceptable and debunked the fakirs with their 'secret death touches' , chi power and so on. While the MA world was into collecting honors and trophies and colored belts, these guys were doing the real thing, learning to actually fight.

In the ring, are the skills I learnt in sport karate, kung fu and chin na useful?

It is a complex answer. Chin Na I would decribe in chess terms. it's sort of like the 4 move checkmate: if you can actually land it on someone: game over.

But in the UFC, where everyone is a Kasparov and Fisher.... don't go there. But in an actual situation when some thug or drunk grabs your collar or shoulder on the street, I'd say it could be useful. CHeckmate him.

So is Chin Na useful? Of course it is. Just depends on who you're playing with.

Same goes for sport karate and KF. THey are skills you can have in your repertoire, and I'm glad i have them. But the range in the UFC is farther away than in KF drills. It's different from boxing too because people can kick as well as punch. They don't stand close the way they would in boxing or in drills. They don't dance around at long range hoping to land a spinning hook kick either. The range is medium. At this range, you may use movement to block and you may use a block, but most of the time you cover up.

So, I was hoping to answer the question, is Chin Na useful and why doesn't CMA have more of a presence in the UFC, but obviously, I've only scratched the surface. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable will take the baton. (Sean?)

Kind regards,

[Jeff C.]

Originally Posted by Zen Rabbit

I'm pretty sure standing joint-locks and breaks are against the rules in MMA tournaments. Of course, they aren't against the rules on the street, but it's really the responsibility of the martial artist to use discretion. Not every fight needs to end up with someone seriously hurt or dead.

Christian, that is totally incorrect. Standing joint-locks and breaks are legal. Maybe you haven't heard of Aoki and his standing wake (waki) gatame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718...eature=related He totally breaks his competitor's arm in this MMA-match video.

Jeff Cook

[sean_stonehart]

Originally Posted by GodofGamblers

So, I was hoping to answer the question, is Chin Na useful and why doesn't CMA have more of a presence in the UFC, but obviously, I've only scratched the surface. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable will take the baton. (Sean?)

Kind regards,

Ehh... this can be a loaded gun so I'm going generic & will deal with it as it comes.

The easiest respone is why... CMA has one of the longest continuous histories (written & oral) of combat usage in the world. The JMAs (samurai based arts I'd think) would probably come in second. I'm also talking large scale stuff, not discounting or foregoing tribal conflicts, earlier civilzations that failed & went away, etc...

CMA empty handed skills were last resort, just like most other skills in combat. Primary weaponry for large scale combat was bow/arrow or spear/halberd, then sword, then holdout weapon then hands. In the non-military world, people still tended to go long weapon (spear/stick), back up & then hand. It honestly wasn't until the past 100 years or so that CMAs focused on hands as a primary rather than last ditch IMHO. Even the "non-violent" monks at Shaolin used weapons & Wu Dang famous for their sword work.

With that said, I'm going to stand by my CMA training & say this... it's not "too dangerous", but not designed for sport to be effective as a sport. It's effective as a SD method, but not a sporting method. To change it to a sporting method, changes it to nothing more than kickboxing & I don't kickbox.

[Oniw17]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Necormancer has a supernatural ability to bring long-dead forum discussion threads back to life. After having been flogged to death the thread may have been deceased for many years, and bringing it back may have scant relevance to the current topic, yet Necromancer will unexpectedly exhume the thread’s rotting corpse, and strike horror in the forum as its grotesque form lurches into the discussion. The monster, instantly recognized by all who knew it in life, seems at first to breathe and have a pulse, but, alas, it is beyond Necromancer’s skill to fully restore the thread’s original vitality. The hideous apparition may frighten away some of the weaker Warriors or Warriors badly wounded in former battles, but the thread is only a shadow of its former self and very quickly expires.

Unlike Archivist, Necromancer compulsively saves every forum message in carefully preserved archives for future use in battle, while Necromancer collects departed threads merely for the thrill of resurrecting them. Some say he performs this unnatural act out of malice, others say he can’t help himself, but no one really knows.

Don't be this guy... Plus, it's against the forum rules...

Heh. I have that website bookmarked.

[Jeff Burger]

Originally Posted by ling hou
We know that when someone is in a stressful environment gross motor skills take over.

I hope no one tells this to fighter pilots.

Allow me to put a stake through this thread's vampiric heart.